The "woke" discussion thread (Page 1 of 2)

It rarely has to do anything with "diversity" (not counting Egypt suing about Cleopatra level stuff), usually it's about an insult to intelligence, when the woke vomit is being shoved in your face by some "revolutionary" writer/director/studio/investor and that's why such services has a demand and exist.

Will check this out, when I have strong suspicion, to not waste time, I go to IMDB reviews and simply search for "woke" - if it is really bad, somebody will write it in a review There are thousand of other things to watch.

But crying about this is hilarious, you picked a fight - it has a side effect of people actually arriving to that fight It does not work like you declare a victory (while being in a total minority) and that's it.

Lets take this discussion to another thread, i find it interesting to discuss if we can manage it in a civil manner - which sadly humanity seems to be lacking.

Brothers! What we do in life...Echoes in Eternity!

Agreed! Personally, I don't look back. Don't believe in "golden eras". We need to do better, even if it's not always comfortable. Just get over yourselves.
Yes, people, getting older is scary. But please don't give in to reactionary forces!

Now more than ever, we live in a time of exposure.  That is, nothing is taboo anymore.  Whether it be racism, political affiliations or sexual orientation, both minority and majority points of view are out there.  As human beings, I think we all hold both majority and minority points of view within our thoughts.  And whatever your point of view or opinion, generally, we don't like our deepest beliefs and convictions challenged and thrown in our faces over and over again.  But that is the world we live in.  We either try to ignore it or we regress into a safe corner somewhere to avoid it.

As for its place in mainstream TV, I have no opinion about it for my criteria about what I watch remains unchanged.  I either like it or I don't.  I choose to watch it or I don't.

Thanks for the separate thread, it's a good idea, although, We can't possibly have a conversation on 'woke' when we can't agree on what it means.

"Woke is an adjective derived from African-American English used since the 1930s or earlier to refer to awareness of racial prejudice and discrimination, often in the construction stay woke. The term acquired political connotations by the 1970s and gained further popularity in the 2010s with the hashtag #staywoke. Over time, woke came to be used to refer to a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism and denial of LGBTQ rights"

Right wingers love to use it as a derogatory term.
"this isn't right!!! women/men/gay/black/disabled/white/trans/people shouldn't be playing this role, that I had no part in writing, it's woke!"
I realise words evolve but I'll be f*cked if I let this one go.

> but I'll be f*cked if I let this one go.
Dude - you do you, but digging in your heals on something like this **that you acknowledge** just makes you that old guy raving about how digital photography isn't real photography, get off my lawn, and all those other tropes of someone refusing to accept a changing world.

Language changes and evolves over time: Accept it.  It really doesn't matter what a word used to mean if that's not the meaning today.  "Gay" used to mean happy, just like in most Christmas songs about "have a gay ole time".  But that's not the meaning it carries today.

> connotations by the 1970s
Hate to break it to you but that was 50 years ago. yeah, it shocks me too.  Words evolve over HALF A CENTURY

Hope no one minds, but I'm gonna jump in to this fascinating conversation... and congratulations on having a civil conversation about such a touchy subject. It's good to see.

I grew up conservative, live among conservatives, and generally sympathize with many of the core components of conservatism, but I don't consider myself either conservative or liberal. I can defend conservatives as a whole because most of my friends and loved ones are conservative and I know where their hearts lie. At the same time, I do NOT feel a need to defend any and all conservative talking points, especially the partisan "team" mentality and the kneejerk reaction of hating everything the left does just because the left does it. I will freely criticize either side when they deserve it and will freely defend either side when they deserve it. I don't tolerate bad logic or dishonest rhetoric and work very hard to avoid it myself as I try to be as objective as possible, although I am human and readily acknowledge my own failings and shortcomings.

Conservatives tend to use the term "woke" as a shorthand for all things connected to the most recent set of ideological rhetoric and tactics used by the left, mostly surrounding topics of race, gender, sexuality, et al (i.e. the ill-named "diversity" groups). While I try to avoid using the term myself, as it is laden with too much baggage to be useful, as it relates to entertainment and the media, this is one topic where I sympathize much more with conservatives than I do with liberals.

A conservative's primary frustration mostly centers on the hyper-fixation on a person's group identity as the most important aspect of who a person is - whether the person in question is a character or the actor behind the character. Conservatives have long been accustomed to characters who were female, gay, minority, etc... Many are well-liked, but when a lead character's primary selling point is their group identity, that's where things become problematic. Shoehorning group identity into every role is bothersome, but especially when it is done to the detriment of the final product. This is particularly true when it damages well-loved franchises and made even worse when one company (Disney) has a virtual monopoly on a large set of formerly male-oriented intellectual property.

Audiences loved Wonder Woman in 2017, but hated Captain Marvel two years later. Is that misogyny or is it bad writing, bad producing, and bad acting? The Miles Morales Spider-Man is well-liked and we have Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury, Idris Elba as Heimdall, and Jason Momoa as Aquaman, who are all generally well-liked. So, backlash against other race-swapping decisions, such as in The Little Mermaid, is not primarily due to racism. It is opposition to casting and writing decisions that aren't focused on producing good movies and TV shows, but on pushing an ideological agenda that is actively damaging franchises that people have loved for generations. The race swapping mentioned above didn't harm the end product, but that doesn't mean that all race/gender swapping won't harm the end product. And despite the consistency with which such group identity focused media flops, Disney seems completely tone-deaf to why this is happening. They continue to blithely run rough-shod over the expressed wishes of the core fan base. I am reminded of the classic line from Joe Dirt: "It's not what you like, it's the consumer."

I don't need or want a white Black Panther. That would be dumb, but I wish the left would see how equally dumb it is to want a female to arbitrarily replacing a male character or to shoehorn group identity into media that simply doesn't need it. You want a gay/female/minority character? Write a good one and people will flock to see it. But don't hijack or sabotage a white/male/straight character to satisfy the mob, especially if you can't do it without producing garbage in the process.

Using the past to justify the present has always struck me as a weak argument.

Double standards are bad no matter if you're woke, straight, gay or otherwise. I would hate to see Ryan Gosling play Black Panther, but if any individual chases 100% equality or supports race swapping, then they also can't have an issue if that DOES happen.

Brothers! What we do in life...Echoes in Eternity!

In my mind its quite simple - if the story is written or rewritten to suit another agenda that the actual story, then its clear whats important to the creators. And tv/film creators are the worst in this category. So yeah, they have a right to stir things up, shake around old habits etc and promote whoever they want to portray whatever they want(essentially) but the second THATS more important than the message in the story - then its done for me.

There have been so many failed attempts at success following this hellbent opinion so I am beginning to wonder if the industry is even interested in making genuine and honest stuff anymore. It seems we live in a age of politics, not entertainment (apart from a few that still believe in the latter)

True. But several of those directors that have gone the woke path, are outspoken activists..so its more access to spend money thats important to them. It sure isn't artistic integrity, revenue and such trivial things...

The one glimmer of light in this is that it seems the direction is shifting so slightly - at least the heavy messaging is toned down somewhat. I guess companies want to earn money again.

"If woke would be profitable, everybody would do it - like everywhere in every country,"
Not so because of local social norms.
"if you wanted their money, you needed to do x, y, z."
It's always been this way and always will be. I just read today that Scarlett Johanssen had capital pulled from her project because it mentioned the Holocaust - which was the main character's whole issue!

But, I agree - it won't end and that's a good thing. I believe in inclusivity, but I do have exceptions. Everyone should be aware of unequal or unfair treatment based merely upon ridiculous prejudices and myths and those who see it should show it as the offense they feel it is. Hollywood is not a total disaster nor has it become a monstrosity - you just don't like this or that because it doesn't jive with YOUR sensibilities. Or maybe mine. So I may or may not watch (I'm open to trying). The same should go for you instead of railing against seeing people who don't look like you or act too much like what you don't like. And it will all probably change again someday. Besides, a big part of TV/movies is the idea of possibility - that someday we may have/have more/have less [fill in the blank] and we can start treating each other as just people instead of slicing and dicing everyone's identities.

BTW, when I say "you" I don't necessarily mean you specifically.