Re: Lovecraft Country [Drama, Fantasy, Horror]

Another piece of "Holy shit, how come I never heard of this!?" US history:

The Day Police Dropped a Bomb On Philadelphia | I Was There (VICE)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X03ErYGB4Kk

In this episode of "I Was There", VICE meets with Ramona Africa, one of the only survivors of the police bombing in a residential neighborhood of Philadelphia in 1985. The bombing was a result of a conflict between the Philadelphia police department and the MOVE organization, the black liberation group in which Ramona belonged. The targeted house was the headquarters of the MOVE group, which had garnered complaints from their neighbors in the predominantly Black neighborhood.

I thought about Lovecraft Country (and this thread) while watching.

Re: Lovecraft Country [Drama, Fantasy, Horror]

Spoiler
some_one wrote:
g371 wrote:

Literally everybody.

The fact that we are having this conversation literally proves you wrong. The fact that many people are having it even more so.

g371 wrote:

You know who also is still alive? My father, who witnessed Russian shit, how his father was deported to Siberia twice in total for 25 years, how he could not even go to the sea 100 metres from his home because there were fucks with AK's patrolling sea border, because people were trying to flee to Sweden, my mother who witnessed how family business is confiscated and her father jailed for 5 years for nothing. And a shitload of other people. Literally today to be in Belarus is 1000 times more fucked than to be a black man in worlds number 1 economy, where all you need to do, is not to play a victim and try to do something instead of embracing dumb "culture" and tearing down monuments smile Minsk today is sundown city, wrong time, wrong place and you are tortured for a couple days by police big_smile

A lot of the things that happened in the Soviet Union were arguably worse; they were, however, different in that a vast majority of them were perpetrated by government officials, not regular citizens. That does not make anything better (maybe even worse) but it does make a direct comparsion difficult.

The things that are currently happening in Belarus are indeed quite fucked up, I agree, but again politically motivated, not people killing other people during peaceful times just because of the way they look. The bad things work differently if they can happen to anyone. Again, maybe worse, but easier to make go away.


g371 wrote:

These TV series, imo, for sure will be weaponized by BLM bullshit, fits agenda perfectly, white cops chasing black guys big_smile Tho series itself looks promising. But it's hard for me to be empathetic to todays "woke" ideas, even if I don't justify past events in any way. In my book, they have problems, but mostly they create them themselves and keep blaming the past for their own doing. For example wtf is that "you are not black enough"? big_smile Like if you do something with your life, are not racist yourself, then you are a sellout and how else they call them. That blackAF basically sums up all nonsense very nice. My pasta is cold? Racism. Toilet don't flush? White oppression big_smile

I don't think it helps to conflate those people saying "please don't kill us without a good reason" with those who just want to be loud about something. There are assholes everywhere, in any movement. It's never a good idea to just assume that the whole movement is about them.

The US do have structures in place where people who do not qualify as "white" simply have a harder time, on average, trying to reach the same goals than those who do, and there is no reason for that. It all simply grew that way. Many people want to change that.


g371 wrote:

You are from Germany? Want a quick history lesson how deeply and how many times we have been fucked by Germany past 1000 years? big_smile When was the last time you heard us complaining about that? In our culture Germans just some 100+ years ago basically are equal to USA's slave owners, but somehow we dont make a connection to modern day Germany, because these were different times and different people.

But this is exactly what I am saying. Our history here involves a lot of really, really bad stuff, even if you just look at the last century. Our ancestors were not the victims there. They were the ones doing it. It is important to remember that, so we can make sure it does not happen again in the future. If you "move on" from history, a few generations later a lot of things will simply happen again, and I really hope that neither of us actually wants that.

I would like to see more of the bad things you are describing, but unfortunately, most of these shows are from the US and center on the US. One notable exception might be Chernobyl.


g371 wrote:

We got rid of Russians just in 90ies, but today we already are ahead of them in every metric. What's the blacks excuse? Systematic racism? smile

Well that's just a weird thing to say. You had your own country to begin with, it was merely occupied for a while. It's a different thing to make progress as a nation instead of as a minority of the people who live in a country whose only defining feature is "looks slightly different" and who cannot change anything about that.


Showing racism in media is not only about giving some people a reason to cheer or whatever. It's also there to show people who do not experience it like that why it sucks. It does that well.


neophyl wrote:

Hey I guess the show is doing one of the things its supposed to.  It gets people talking about it.  No matter what your views are.

I'm with Member, more monsters of the Lovecraft kind please smile

Agreed. I'ma watch ep2 now.

I know I'm late to this conversation but I want to say thank you some_one for all your comments. As a black man in America I was so put off and sadden by this this exchange. How sad that by someone merely sympathizing with black people in America invoked such distain. I would never dismiss any oppression anywhere in the world and it should never be turned into who had it worse. It is all wrong wherever it happens in the world and should always be called out and fought against.

That is not victim stancing that's standing up for one's human rights and dignity.

The fact that this gentleman referred to black people as "Blackies" in a later post speaks to his character and his true sentiments towards black people. His comments were nothing more than racism attempting to masquerade as civil discourse.



-----------------------------------------------------------
I Hid the quote in spoilers to avoid too long post.
-Daemonius

Cruzin

Re: Lovecraft Country [Drama, Fantasy, Horror]

Sadly I thought the finale was a bit of a let down. 

Re the Tulsa massacre, I don't mean to blow my own trumpet, or maybe I do, but I was fully aware of it. And I was born in the UK in 1974 to a family in rural Somerset who knew very little about anything and voted Tory.

Suppose it helps that my first degree was in American Studies. But I didn't learn about it from any of the modules I took I'm just generally interested in stuff. The US being the most powerful country on the planet interests me a great deal.

I don't watch trailers. I never have and I never will.
I don't like Tom Cruise, James Cameron and there's lots more to add, give me time
I don't like Star Wars or Star Trek or any superhero *hit

Re: Lovecraft Country [Drama, Fantasy, Horror]

vapdne wrote:

Re the Tulsa massacre, I don't mean to blow my own trumpet, or maybe I do, but I was fully aware of it. And I was born in the UK in 1974 to a family in rural Somerset who knew very little about anything and voted Tory.

That means you know more about it than most. smile

Weird fact of the day: 45% of Americans believe that ghosts and demons exist.

Re: Lovecraft Country [Drama, Fantasy, Horror]

lighton wrote:
vapdne wrote:

Re the Tulsa massacre, I don't mean to blow my own trumpet, or maybe I do, but I was fully aware of it. And I was born in the UK in 1974 to a family in rural Somerset who knew very little about anything and voted Tory.

That means you know more about it than most. smile

Weird fact of the day: 45% of Americans believe that ghosts and demons exist.

Hey, no need to make fun of Americans! Lol

Cruzin

56 (edited by some_one 2020-12-23 02:47:26)

Re: Lovecraft Country [Drama, Fantasy, Horror]

cruzin_4fun wrote:

[...]

Glad to hear it means something to somebody as it is. It wasn't primarily supposed to. Our minds tend to simplify reality over time and, if we let it, beyond recognition. The only good way to stay sharp like that, really, is to be disagreed with often and I'm just hoping to do my part in that.


cruzin_4fun wrote:

The fact that this gentleman referred to black people as "Blackies" in a later post speaks to his character and his true sentiments towards black people. His comments were nothing more than racism attempting to masquerade as civil discourse.

Please let me try to do the same for you.

There are many forms of racism. The type you see in the US is one that is rooted in history and reinforced by ignorance and tribalism.

The type of racism you see with us Europeans, while still racism, works somewhat differently. It is often purely made of ignorance. Most countries here are still predominantly white and the notable minorities that do exist usually have both an actual cultural background (point of origin, tradition, etc.) and are also mostly somewhat recent - likely from the 20th century. As a black man you likely would experience racism here, but merely as other, not as black.


That being said, a lot of people here do not fully understand how bad it can still be in the US sometimes, or at least don't care about something happening all the way over there. The latter, maybe also the former, seemed to be the case here.

What people here do see is that this particular issue is getting a lot of attention. Attention is maybe the most primal of currencies - you can even pay infants with it. It can often matter to people where it goes.

Since most grade A television is still made in the US and later exported, we get a lot of content that pays attention to your primary issues. This can get very annoying for some of us. Giving it even more attention can prompt a strong emotional reaction in some.

The issue at hand there is not racism per se - it's mostly just that calling this out and seeming like a racist is often easier than playing along and seeing more and more of it. After a while, it can become a habit.

If the habit doesn't get a better outlet, it can lead to identifying with actual racists more and more over time. If people keep calling you a racist, you might eventually start being proud of it.


Again, it works somewhat differently in the US. Many of the latter concepts are often still involved, though.

Discourse does not need to be civil. It only needs to continue. This whole societal system only works if we all keep working towards a point where everyone can see everyone else's point of view, even if it seems futile.


cruzin_4fun wrote:

Hey, no need to make fun of Americans! Lol

Come on, you know there's always a need to make fun of Americans. smile

57 (edited by cruzin_4fun 2020-12-23 05:13:10)

Re: Lovecraft Country [Drama, Fantasy, Horror]

Spoiler
some_one wrote:
cruzin_4fun wrote:

[...]

Glad to hear it means something to somebody as it is. It wasn't primarily supposed to. Our minds tend to simplify reality over time and, if we let it, beyond recognition. The only good way to stay sharp like that, really, is to be disagreed with often and I'm just hoping to do my part in that.


cruzin_4fun wrote:

The fact that this gentleman referred to black people as "Blackies" in a later post speaks to his character and his true sentiments towards black people. His comments were nothing more than racism attempting to masquerade as civil discourse.

Please let me try to do the same for you.

There are many forms of racism. The type you see in the US is one that is rooted in history and reinforced by ignorance and tribalism.

The type of racism you see with us Europeans, while still racism, works somewhat differently. It is often purely made of ignorance. Most countries here are still predominantly white and the notable minorities that do exist usually have both an actual cultural background (point of origin, tradition, etc.) and are also mostly somewhat recent - likely from the 20th century. As a black man you likely would experience racism here, but merely as other, not as black.


That being said, a lot of people here do not fully understand how bad it can still be in the US sometimes, or at least don't care about something happening all the way over there. The latter, maybe also the former, seemed to be the case here.

What people here do see is that this particular issue is getting a lot of attention. Attention is maybe the most primal of currencies - you can even pay infants with it. It can often matter to people where it goes.

Since most grade A television is still made in the US and later exported, we get a lot of content that pays attention to your primary issues. This can get very annoying for some of us. Giving it even more attention can prompt a strong emotional reaction in some.

The issue at hand there is not racism per se - it's mostly just that calling this out and seeming like a racist is often easier than playing along and seeing more and more of it. After a while, it can become a habit.

If the habit doesn't get a better outlet, it can lead to identifying with actual racists more and more over time. If people keep calling you a racist, you might eventually start being proud of it.


Again, it works somewhat differently in the US. Many of the latter concepts are often still involved, though.

Discourse does not need to be civil. It only needs to continue. This whole societal system only works if we all keep working towards a point where everyone can see everyone else's point of view, even if it seems futile.


cruzin_4fun wrote:

Hey, no need to make fun of Americans! Lol

Come on, you know there's always a need to make fun of Americans. smile

LOL, fine make fun away! We did have Trump for 4yr!

Wow, I had to think alot about what you said and I tried really hard to understand some of your points. Like the attention of black issues on TV. I can't see where American TV is flooded with black plight to be so overwhelming it's an annoyance.

I only see this type of annoyance when it comes to issues of color. I never hear anyone saying "I'm so tired of all these period pieces and those commoners  complaining about autocracies" or "I'm real tired about watching shows about the Irish and the scotch trying to gain their independence. Or any other shows or movies that cover European history.

I always find it funny how white people get to say some of the most bigoted, ignorant and racist things and then turn themselves into the victim because someone calls them a racist; which pushing them to become a racist. Shame on me for not understanding their struggle.

I can fully appreciate the critique of America TV and of shows surrounding America's racial history. What I do not appreciate is someone in that critique belittling, degrading or maligning those being discriminated against.

And how the heck do a show in the period of America 1980s- and pior and not have it touch racial issues? Ignore black people forget it happened?

--------------------------------------------

Long quote hidden in spoiler to keep readability.
-Daemonius

Cruzin

58 (edited by graybags 2020-12-23 17:00:46)

Re: Lovecraft Country [Drama, Fantasy, Horror]

lighton wrote:
vapdne wrote:

Re the Tulsa massacre, I don't mean to blow my own trumpet, or maybe I do, but I was fully aware of it. And I was born in the UK in 1974 to a family in rural Somerset who knew very little about anything and voted Tory.

That means you know more about it than most. smile

Weird fact of the day: 45% of Americans believe that ghosts and demons exist.

Prove to me they don't exist then smile    Ghost and demons, not Americans!

2020.  Meh.

Re: Lovecraft Country [Drama, Fantasy, Horror]

lighton wrote:
vapdne wrote:

Re the Tulsa massacre, I don't mean to blow my own trumpet, or maybe I do, but I was fully aware of it. And I was born in the UK in 1974 to a family in rural Somerset who knew very little about anything and voted Tory.

That means you know more about it than most. smile

Weird fact of the day: 45% of Americans believe that ghosts and demons exist.

Yeah I've seen data on these areas. In Western Europe it can vary a lot with countries with significant Catholic populations (most notably Republic of Ireland, Italy, Spain) having a much larger group of people believing in such things than others. Germany leads the way in atheists and UK isn't far behind.

I don't watch trailers. I never have and I never will.
I don't like Tom Cruise, James Cameron and there's lots more to add, give me time
I don't like Star Wars or Star Trek or any superhero *hit

Re: Lovecraft Country [Drama, Fantasy, Horror]

graybags wrote:
lighton wrote:
vapdne wrote:

Re the Tulsa massacre, I don't mean to blow my own trumpet, or maybe I do, but I was fully aware of it. And I was born in the UK in 1974 to a family in rural Somerset who knew very little about anything and voted Tory.

That means you know more about it than most. smile

Weird fact of the day: 45% of Americans believe that ghosts and demons exist.

Prove to me they don't exist then smile    Ghost and demons, not Americans!

Prove to me they do wink

I don't watch trailers. I never have and I never will.
I don't like Tom Cruise, James Cameron and there's lots more to add, give me time
I don't like Star Wars or Star Trek or any superhero *hit

Re: Lovecraft Country [Drama, Fantasy, Horror]

vapdne wrote:
graybags wrote:
lighton wrote:
vapdne wrote:

Re the Tulsa massacre, I don't mean to blow my own trumpet, or maybe I do, but I was fully aware of it. And I was born in the UK in 1974 to a family in rural Somerset who knew very little about anything and voted Tory.

That means you know more about it than most. smile

Weird fact of the day: 45% of Americans believe that ghosts and demons exist.

Prove to me they don't exist then smile    Ghost and demons, not Americans!

Prove to me they do wink

Tha'ts my point, nobody can either way, so you can't have a go at what people believe if there isn't definitive proof either way.  Unlike flat earthers smile

2020.  Meh.

Re: Lovecraft Country [Drama, Fantasy, Horror]

cruzin_4fun wrote:

Wow, I had to think alot about what you said and I tried really hard to understand some of your points.

Thank you. That alone means a lot already.


cruzin_4fun wrote:

I only see this type of annoyance when it comes to issues of color. I never hear anyone saying "I'm so tired of all these period pieces and those commoners  complaining about autocracies" or "I'm real tired about watching shows about the Irish and the scotch trying to gain their independence. Or any other shows or movies that cover European history.

I think it should be noted that these are usually contained to their own shows, which are often explicitly about those issues. Systematic racism in the US, however, is still such a big issue that it bleeds into anything the culture creates, therefore being a likely element in any american movie or tv show. It's that ubiquity that seems to set some people off.


cruzin_4fun wrote:

I always find it funny how white people get to say some of the most bigoted, ignorant and racist things and then turn themselves into the victim because someone calls them a racist; which pushing them to become a racist. Shame on me for not understanding their struggle.

I can fully appreciate the critique of America TV and of shows surrounding America's racial history. What I do not appreciate is someone in that critique belittling, degrading or maligning those being discriminated against.

Oh, absolutely. Definitely not trying to justify it. I can only imagine how frustrating this must get over time.

The reason I bring stuff like that up is not so anyone can relate to and tolerate it; rather, it's the assumption that understanding where someone is coming from makes it easier to change their mind.

Doing that really shouldn't be neccessary for something like this anymore, but trying is still better than the alternative.


Regardless of that, the main aspect of what I was originally trying to say here does not apply to any white supremacists or even baseline racists in the US.

What I was trying to convey was that g371 does not share a cultural context with them.

For us, here, they are usually not "white people". They are merely "crazy Americans", just as you are American first and black second. If you lump people abroad in with them, you only end up making the problem even more about race, which hurts everyone even more in the long run.

Again, I am not saying any ball should be in your field here. It really should not; but this one is.


cruzin_4fun wrote:

And how the heck do a show in the period of America 1980s- and pior and not have it touch racial issues?

Agreed.

Re: Lovecraft Country [Drama, Fantasy, Horror]

some_one wrote:
cruzin_4fun wrote:

Wow, I had to think alot about what you said and I tried really hard to understand some of your points.

Thank you. That alone means a lot already.


cruzin_4fun wrote:

I only see this type of annoyance when it comes to issues of color. I never hear anyone saying "I'm so tired of all these period pieces and those commoners  complaining about autocracies" or "I'm real tired about watching shows about the Irish and the scotch trying to gain their independence. Or any other shows or movies that cover European history.

I think it should be noted that these are usually contained to their own shows, which are often explicitly about those issues. Systematic racism in the US, however, is still such a big issue that it bleeds into anything the culture creates, therefore being a likely element in any american movie or tv show. It's that ubiquity that seems to set some people off.


cruzin_4fun wrote:

I always find it funny how white people get to say some of the most bigoted, ignorant and racist things and then turn themselves into the victim because someone calls them a racist; which pushing them to become a racist. Shame on me for not understanding their struggle.

I can fully appreciate the critique of America TV and of shows surrounding America's racial history. What I do not appreciate is someone in that critique belittling, degrading or maligning those being discriminated against.

Oh, absolutely. Definitely not trying to justify it. I can only imagine how frustrating this must get over time.

The reason I bring stuff like that up is not so anyone can relate to and tolerate it; rather, it's the assumption that understanding where someone is coming from makes it easier to change their mind.

Doing that really shouldn't be neccessary for something like this anymore, but trying is still better than the alternative.


Regardless of that, the main aspect of what I was originally trying to say here does not apply to any white supremacists or even baseline racists in the US.

What I was trying to convey was that g371 does not share a cultural context with them.

For us, here, they are usually not "white people". They are merely "crazy Americans", just as you are American first and black second. If you lump people abroad in with them, you only end up making the problem even more about race, which hurts everyone even more in the long run.

Again, I am not saying any ball should be in your field here. It really should not; but this one is.


cruzin_4fun wrote:

And how the heck do a show in the period of America 1980s- and pior and not have it touch racial issues?

Agreed.

I appreciate the diolog, I hope I didn't come across as if I believe that every white person was a racist or hold negative views of people of color. To the contrary.

Now I'm not sure how ubiquitous the issue is when there are tons of American shows that never touch on race or racism or these cultural issues.

Never the less I guess I could ask more questions to understand why it makes people feel or react the way that some people do.

Cruzin

Re: Lovecraft Country [Drama, Fantasy, Horror]

cruzin_4fun wrote:

Never the less I guess I could ask more questions to understand why it makes people feel or react the way that some people do.

I do believe that's pretty much always a good thing to try. If nothing else, there's still enough time to judge later.


cruzin_4fun wrote:

Now I'm not sure how ubiquitous the issue is when there are tons of American shows that never touch on race or racism or these cultural issues.

Not sure myself. Personally, I don't mind. A lot of people don't like being expected to sympathize with something they believe doesn't concern them, though.


cruzin_4fun wrote:

I appreciate the diolog, I hope I didn't come across as if I believe that every white person was a racist or hold negative views of people of color. To the contrary.

Same here, and no, that was not the impression you made. Again, for me it was just an attempt to make a simplified view of a situation less simple; that seems to have worked. Thank you for that.

Re: Lovecraft Country [Drama, Fantasy, Horror]

some_one wrote:
cruzin_4fun wrote:

Never the less I guess I could ask more questions to understand why it makes people feel or react the way that some people do.

I do believe that's pretty much always a good thing to try. If nothing else, there's still enough time to judge later.


cruzin_4fun wrote:

Now I'm not sure how ubiquitous the issue is when there are tons of American shows that never touch on race or racism or these cultural issues.

Not sure myself. Personally, I don't mind. A lot of people don't like being expected to sympathize with something they believe doesn't concern them, though.


cruzin_4fun wrote:

I appreciate the diolog, I hope I didn't come across as if I believe that every white person was a racist or hold negative views of people of color. To the contrary.

Same here, and no, that was not the impression you made. Again, for me it was just an attempt to make a simplified view of a situation less simple; that seems to have worked. Thank you for that.

You're quite welcome!

Cruzin