1 (edited by marco1475 2011-09-22 03:36:59)

Topic: Season 4

So, one more day before the new season starts. What are your expectations? Do you guys think the writers can pull it off, can they follow that mesmerizing last five minutes of the third season's finale with something worthy? Or will whatever they come up with be weak and watered down?

WARNING: SPOILERS FOLLOW!

It is pretty clear that Jane won't spend any length of time in prison or at least not on-screen. And while it would be interesting to see him in prison

+ show spoiler

- after all House did a very successful stunt in a mental institution and will be spending time in prison at the beginning of the new season -

that's not what the show is about. Plus it would completely sidetrack the rest of the team.

On the one hand I feel like the last five minutes would have been the perfect series ender, simply a masterful stroke. The show is a procedural and Jane's search for Red John was always in the background, so technically the show could survive if that part would be over and done with. However, that search and Jane's obsession was at the heart of the show and by killing Red John the writers have deprived themselves of that emotional core, which is a huge deal.

So we are left with two options: either Jane did kill the real Red John or he killed a patsy or a stand-in / accomplice.

If Jane did kill the real Red John we're left with a show that is just a quirky procedural, becoming more akin to Psych (since the darkness of Jane's Red John obsession was one of the few things setting the show apart). We lose the darkness and we're down to a mildly entertaining procedural, probably not worth watching. If this is the case the writers really should have ended the show with last year's finale.

If the person Jane killed wasn't Red John, Jane should be in a lot more trouble - killing Red John might be judged by a jury as justified, killing anybody else ... not so much. Any plot device the writers come up with to get Jane back to working with the team will feel heavy-handed and illogical. Moreover, the person not being Red John will significantly lessen the impact of season three's final minutes. (While that is a TV show's prerogative and it is one of the few storytelling elements that set TV shows apart from books and movies, it would still feel cheap and I would feel cheated, because emotionally last season's finale was just impeccable.)

All in all I don't feel very confident and am kind of dreading tomorrow's premiere, because I can't see any other options where the writers could take the show. They wrote themselves into a corner - a fantastically poignant and satisfying corner, but a corner nonetheless. The only thing that gives me hope is that it was a deliberate, ballsy choice by the writers and I applaud their courage to take such a big step so early in a show's life, seemingly killing their biggest asset and character motivator. (Early for a procedural - if CSI's 12 and Law and Order's 20 seasons have taught us anything it's that procedurals can run for decades.)

I am sure it was a writers' choice about what happened in the final minutes of last season, but I am less sure if the new season wasn't a "suit decision," forcing the (maybe new) writers to carry on from an impossible situation. So I ask again, what do you guys think / expect / hope to get from tomorrow's season opener and the episodes following it?

"We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go."
-- Colonel Tigh

http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=6a46bed7e7b08a8ca752faaaa99a03bd

Re: Season 4

Obvious choice would be for them to reveal a new antagonist for Jane at the end of tomorrow's episode making it seem like Red John wasn't alone, and he some how gets the charges against Jane dropped, making it a person in power.

What ever they do, something as to happen to make Jane want to continue to crime fight

Re: Season 4

So they went the root of it not being the real Red John and a not really believable trial or engagement with the victims 'wife'

Re: Season 4

Well, I stand kind of corrected. I didn't think of the insanity angle and while the episode didn't try to convince us of that I still appreciated it a lot. Probably because Bruno Heller was smart about it and didn't try to cram the idea down our throats, but just put it out there and let it fester on its own.

And I have to admit the reveal that who he killed wasn't Red John didn't lessen last season's finale as much as I thought it would. I really liked that the reveal it wasn't Red John was a private one for Jane, not a public one, because it allowed Jane to get off scot-free, re-framed Red John as the target, and made Jane that much darker and less heroic. It is also going to put new strain on Jane's relationship with Lisbon and worked really well as a plot device.

"We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go."
-- Colonel Tigh

http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=6a46bed7e7b08a8ca752faaaa99a03bd

Re: Season 4

I don't mind entirely that it happened...I just would have liked it to be more than 'the system conveniently has these flaws'. I mean, he's a mentalist...and it feels like a rip-off that we didn't get to see how he manipulated the jury. The whole episode felt a lot like when Jane 'magically' hypnotizes people.

It's the same thing that began to disappoint me with Cal in 'Lie to Me'...where early on, it was great, because the writers broke down how Cal deciphered the lies. Later, he was just able to do it...no explaining how to the audience necessary.

Apart from the whole 'key' thing, this episode used no real cleverness...just resigned to having us say, well, he's the mentalist, so he used a mind trick...whatever that was...

-Rob

Re: Season 4

Robcore wrote:

I don't mind entirely that it happened...I just would have liked it to be more than 'the system conveniently has these flaws'. I mean, he's a mentalist...and it feels like a rip-off that we didn't get to see how he manipulated the jury. The whole episode felt a lot like when Jane 'magically' hypnotizes people.

It's the same thing that began to disappoint me with Cal in 'Lie to Me'...where early on, it was great, because the writers broke down how Cal deciphered the lies. Later, he was just able to do it...no explaining how to the audience necessary.

Apart from the whole 'key' thing, this episode used no real cleverness...just resigned to having us say, well, he's the mentalist, so he used a mind trick...whatever that was...

-Rob

You couldn't be more accurate on things..covered me absolutely..

My Watchlist
http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=8df04488f42411d9eab75dead36fb302

7 (edited by BigZ 2011-09-24 10:41:16)

Re: Season 4

In S04E01, did you notice that the headrest in Lisbon's car was removed when they were outside Red John's (or who he was) house? And in the final part where they were driving, the headrest was back in place? What was that about?  wink

Re: Season 4

BigZ wrote:

In S04E01, did you notice that the headrest in Lisbon's car was removed when they were outside Red John's (or who he was) house? And in the final part where they were driving, the headrest was back in place? What was that about?  wink

Regular old continuity error I guess. . . I like that she was using a Chevy Volt though.

As for the episode, I liked it. Patrick doing his thing with the jury was pretty good. . .

don't sweat the petty things, pet the sweaty things
http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=f3328b27e18bdad65428dcb26b3b9ba3

Re: Season 4

Doing his thing with the jury? What did he do with the jury? They sided with him...but it's not like he gave an especially great speech or anything...

-Rob

Re: Season 4

Robcore wrote:

Doing his thing with the jury? What did he do with the jury? They sided with him...but it's not like he gave an especially great speech or anything...

I felt like he did manipulate the jury - not with a great speech, like we're used to from law shows, but with painting them a very vivid picture of Red John's atrocities across multiple victims and then bringing it home for the personal touch of his wife's and daughter's murder. He used projection to make the jury first hate Red John and then feel his loss of a dear one and giving them a way to banish those feelings by alleviating his suffering by setting him free. That pretty much is how those things work in real life. (But I am not suggesting that exactly the same situation would work in real life on a real jury - I'm just saying that juries are swayed without elaborate and sterling closing arguments, which are mostly an invention of popular fiction.)

I hear you with Lie to Me and Cal's explanations but that is really just TV writing shorthand. It would get repetitive and boring if every time Cal had to explain how he caught somebody's body language when they were lying. It's like KITT driving into or out of the truck that served as their mobile base in Knight Rider. We were shown that the first few episodes but after a while they just cut to the interior of the truck or Michael on the road already, because you know how he got where he is. You can have only so many shots of a car entering / exiting a semi and they would get repetitive and stale really quick. Conversely you have only so many body language "tells" that you can use and mentioning them in dialog every time gets boring very fast.

Having said that I would have liked if Jane's case would have ended in a hung jury, i.e. his skill was good enough to deadlock the jury and have the case dismissed rather than an out-and-out not guilty verdict. A hung jury would also have prevented Jane from returning to the CBI and the show from restoring the status quo, which is something they seem to be aiming at (even though most of the team is still suspended and the CBI boss was again playing politics and throwing Jane to the wolves so it's unlikely Jane will be welcomed back to CBI with open arms). Honestly, going back to solving cases-of-the-week in the second episode of this season would piss me off much more than the fact that they resurrected Red John.

"We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go."
-- Colonel Tigh

http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=6a46bed7e7b08a8ca752faaaa99a03bd

Re: Season 4

I get what you're saying...only, we haven't seen Jane persuade entire crowds before...it was a shorthand for something we haven't actually seen. We haven't seen Jane successfully manipulate everyone into believing him. We've seen him manipulate plenty of people despite the fact that they disagreed with him, or even when they actively disliked him...heck, he's even persuaded 'believers' when he was acting as a medium...but convincing 12 people to decide, in isolation, that he was not guilty of a crime that he admitted to committing? With the influence of a counter-arguing lawyer? They copped out on that...we haven't seen it before...it's not the same old explanation again...

I think the hung jury would have been better for sure...

-Rob

Re: Season 4

Robcore wrote:

I get what you're saying...only, we haven't seen Jane persuade entire crowds before...it was a shorthand for something we haven't actually seen.

You are right, we haven't, and I wish the writers would have handled it differently. But part of my argument was also that especially with juries and heinous crimes you don't really need to be a mentalist to get an "incorrect" ruling. It's simple human nature.

The thing that bothered me more about the trial wasn't Jane's manipulation of the jury's emotions but the fact that the DA let the girl who was held hostage by wannabe-Red John testify. That was the key that allowed Jane to paint wannabe-Red John as an evil monster, yet the girl's abduction had nothing to do with wannabe-Red John's murder, because Jane wasn't aware of it and couldn't have claimed to be rescuing her / investigating the kidnapping, so I don't see the grounds on which her testimony was allowed.

"We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go."
-- Colonel Tigh

http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=6a46bed7e7b08a8ca752faaaa99a03bd

Re: Season 4

So what'd you all think of the end to season 4?

-Rob

Re: Season 4

Predictably boring

Re: Season 4

It was an expected finale but i would add it was not boring..i liked it.

My Watchlist
http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=8df04488f42411d9eab75dead36fb302

Re: Season 4

Renewed also for season 6:
http://www.spoilertv.com/2012/06/mental … eason.html

http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=f2966a511fdd8bb4a428730b3f318478

Re: Season 4

2 more seasons could be good although i wish they would wrap this red john back story up, getting a bit bored of it now

Re: Season 4

Well, I couldn't stay away and watched the entire season 4 last week. I still don't like it how they handled the Red John situation at the beginning of the season, but other RJ episodes were better and the finale was ok. I'd also like to add that "normal" procedural episodes were more interesting than the ones last season and I'd call only a few of them weak. The new boss was also ok. What I didn't like about season 4 is what they did to some of the characters. Kimball hooking up with a hooker? Really? And I'm supposed to be sad when she left? C'mon... I also couldn't care less about Rigsby's life since they've only shown tiny portions of it. I understand that this show is primarily about Patrick, Teresa, Red John and solving normal murders, but if you waste air time on additional characters you should do it properly.

http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=f2966a511fdd8bb4a428730b3f318478

Re: Season 4

xrnzaaas wrote:

Well, I couldn't stay away and watched the entire season 4 last week. I still don't like it how they handled the Red John situation at the beginning of the season, but other RJ episodes were better and the finale was ok. I'd also like to add that "normal" procedural episodes were more interesting than the ones last season and I'd call only a few of them weak. The new boss was also ok. What I didn't like about season 4 is what they did to some of the characters. Kimball hooking up with a hooker? Really? And I'm supposed to be sad when she left? C'mon... I also couldn't care less about Rigsby's life since they've only shown tiny portions of it. I understand that this show is primarily about Patrick, Teresa, Red John and solving normal murders, but if you waste air time on additional characters you should do it properly.

As for the procedural episodes you mentioned, mentalist is my favorite at this kind of thing. I could watch all day while Jane is doing his "thing" tongue

My Watchlist
http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=8df04488f42411d9eab75dead36fb302

Re: Season 4

I honestly think this show does the procedural part the worse of all the ones I watch. Jane is the only reason I watched most of season 4.