Re: This is unacceptable.

I dont get what the unacceptable part is about ?
So some people dont read the same books as others.... What's so hard to grasp about that ? Not everyone has read the bible, and that's the most read book in the world. It has action, suspense, plot twists, drama, sex, betrayal; So with glowing recommendations, a good summary and #1 on the bestseller charts since recorded history began, You'd think most people would have read it......

I personally, have "a song of fire and ice" book on my shelf, but haven't read it. The book is there along with something like 20.000 films and TV episodes I haven't watched and probably 1.500 books I haven't read either. There's just not enough time to watch all movies, or read all books... Get over it. I know I did....

Come to think of it.... Maybe I should start using the local library istead of the local Ebay.......

Re: This is unacceptable.

What are you talking about Twistedddk?

I think it is great that George R R Martin have TV experience from before. Almost makes me want to watch beauty and the best. Dont remember much about it from when it was TV. Maybe have a night with George R R Martin the twilight zone episodes too.

Re: This is unacceptable.

ayearinmx wrote:

i've never understood the moral highground that people that read the book seem to take over those that haven't....  and i also find it baffling when those people then write "it's not as good as the book".... like that is some kind of revelation

it's a TV show, take it as a TV show and you'll enjoy it a lot more.... if you take it as a poor knock-off of a book, then you're gonna be left disappointed....

The real issue is the quality of the adaptation. I am not a zealot that requires every single word from the book to be transfered to the screen. I also understand that books and movies use different "languages" to bring ideas across. But most of the time the adaptation fails because it misunderstands or willfully omits important parts or ideas from the original.

There are really good adaptations (Lord of the Rings for one, Game of Thrones is shaping up nicely as well, etc.) and those are fantastic additions to the books - the visuals, music, and pure raw emotions movies can elicit are miles beyond what you can get from a book (a book spreads those emotions out over a longer period of time while the movie concentrates it in two hours). But like I said, usually adaptations fail and they fail for willful, voluntary changes because the writers think they know "better."

My favorite example is the V for Vendetta movie which got everything wrong from the graphic novel, ignoring and often going counter to the underlying ideas and themes of the original, but it got one single scene perfect (the prison & Valerie's letter). That one scene is what hurt the most about watching the movie after I read the graphic novel, because I saw that when the writers didn't want to be special and make the story "current" and they followed Moore's original to the letter, the emotion the movie was capable of creating was overwhelming (the music and direction of that scene were superb).

So reading books first allows me to make sure I get the real message of the author and the ideas / thoughts behind the story and not some Hollywood hack writer's interpretation that was white-washed for mass-consumption. And yes, in those cases when I care about the original material (which is almost always, because the original is usually good, otherwise Hollywood wouldn't be adapting it) I am very disappointed when the adaptation gets it wrong.

(I also believe that having read the original and watching a good adaptation elicits more satisfaction than just watching the adaptation without knowing the original.)

"We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go."
-- Colonel Tigh

http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=6a46bed7e7b08a8ca752faaaa99a03bd

Re: This is unacceptable.

The question is: are the ideas in the books and/or the adaptations thereof so critical and/or profound that they must be communicated with all the nuance and clarity that the hardcore audience would like? I mean, it's all pretty much escapist content we're dealing with here...not factual or even particularly philosophical in any complex sort of way...

Sure, one version or another might convey the emotion better than the other, or perhaps lend itself better to highlighting a particular aspect of the story, but unless that's something that's necessarily meaningful...to both the story AND to the audience, then whether one sees one version or both is not critical...just curious.

-Rob

Re: This is unacceptable.

i am not very good with words, but i have fair amount of imagination.
when i read books i let my fantasy/imagination run free and it creates another story/aura around the story written in the books. when writer describes some scenery/castle/people i tend to visualize myself how it/he/she looked-looks like.
so any good enough action/fantasy/sci-fi story feeds my imagination of how writer saw it and how i see it.
since people are so different nobody really can force me to imagine things their way. they might give me guidelines where to start, but that's all.

"Avenge Me."
"Judgment Day is inevitable."
__________________________________________
My Watchlist

Re: This is unacceptable.

Robcore wrote:

The question is: are the ideas in the books and/or the adaptations thereof so critical and/or profound that they must be communicated with all the nuance and clarity that the hardcore audience would like?

I would argue that the ideas behind a book's story are the most important part of said book. The book isn't about person A going from  X to point Y and doing Z, it's about why, how, and then what the overall message of the story was. Of course, you could argue that good books contain multiple ideas or that different readers take away different ideas, which makes adapting the book particularly hard. But most of the time the lazy adaptations really adapt just the bare-bones story (movements, actions, and very seldom motivations of characters) and then add or invent their own ideas on top of that.

While that is still valid, I'd prefer if the writers then didn't camouflage their ideas behind (seen from the marketing perspective) a trademark that has nothing to do with the new idea. If you change the message - no matter how unimportant that message is in the big scheme of things - you lose the right to use the names and stories from the book. Simple as that.

(Coming back to my favorite example: V for Vendetta (graphic novel) was all about anarchy, the need for rebellions, their natural life cycle, and freedom. The government in the graphic novel was evil and corrupt, but there it did nothing that would make its people rebel against it as the movie implied with the bio weapons. In the graphic novel V systematically destroys the government from within, without exposing it, and manipulates the population into rebelling - a very powerful statement about propaganda and its usage by itself. But the movie changed the police inspector's character (and most of the police) to be the good guy that discovers the atrocities the government has committed and brings them to light. So from previously V and Evey against everybody we get V and Evey just need to convince the police the government is corrupt and that knowledge will empower the people to overthrow the government. Now you tell me if that is an adaptation in the spirit of the original or not?)

"We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go."
-- Colonel Tigh

http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=6a46bed7e7b08a8ca752faaaa99a03bd

Re: This is unacceptable.

I would argue that the ideas behind a book's story are the most important part of said book. The book isn't about person A going from  X to point Y and doing Z, it's about why, how, and then what the overall message of the story was.

I'd order it the other way, beginning with what the overall message was. If the overall message is worthy, then how it's conveyed is slightly more critical, and for that to be convincing then there must be consideration for the 'why' as well.
Buuut, if the message isn't particularly meaningful, then the nuance of how it's conveyed is less of an issue, and the motivation isn't critical either...for without deep meaning, it really is just characters doing things and going places.

Now, as far as meaning goes, I do differentiate between real meaning (meaning to the viewer) and superficial meaning (meaning to the characters) i.e. it might be emotional and meaningful for the character who's country is about to become leveled by war machines, but to me it's just a character and something happening to them unless there is some significant meaning that transcends the contents of the book.
I think of Michael Bay films here...I mean, if giant robots battled it out downtown, it would be absolutely crazy if it happened for real...but no matter how epic the scale of the action or drama is, and how 'holy crap' it must be to the characters in the film...or even to bystanders in the story-worlds...it just doesn't matter, because the meaning of those events is only superficial escapist art...it's not really meaningful.

That said, I think few things that get adapted are particularly meaningful, and thus, it's more important to be true to the medium than it is to be true to the message.

-Rob

Re: This is unacceptable.

That is a great example of how a small change can help change long books into a movie without the general message being changed. Good job marco. Especially after what we saw in egypt that small change holds alot of merit now.

I think all books are different. They work on different ideas and different things are more important depending on the book and the writers thoughts.
When changed to a movie i think the best thing is to talk to the author (if still alive) and work out the essence of the book(s) and from there work out the script.

I dont think everything must stay the same. It is good to come up with surprises for those who have read the books but they need to be well planned and stay true to the basic ideas in the book.
In Game of Thrones i expect some changes and even for some characters that died to stay alive if only just for a little longer than in the books and maybe some will die too. I expect those changes being made and thought out by or with the help of George R R Martin.

59 (edited by Overman 2011-04-24 23:29:50)

Re: This is unacceptable.

I think what is unacceptable is passing judgement on the series based off the first episode. Honestly, Martin's series here is a bit complex and very gritty. People die almost whimsically, heroes fall without reason and villains rise to power in unjust and clandestined ways. What I like so far from just the first episode is that it is clear that HBO knows they are dealing with some complex stories and decided to take their time. The pacing might seem slow; however, honestly, I can't think of a better way to deal with it.

Having read three of the four books, I am excited to see how this goes. My wife, who has never read the series, seems interested in the show because of what I know about the story and how well it was written. I came to Martin after James Oliver Rigney, Jr. (Robert Jordan) and Terry Goodkind books. I was almost ready to abaddon Fantasy as a rip off of stories. The two stories are very closely releated in pace, subject, and development that I was sick of fantasy. Then comes Martin...  Utterly original, almost impossible to actually pin point who the main character is (I don't think there is one), and when you finally think you understand who the hero is they end up dead, sometimes, almost in passing.

Great work of literature and I'm exicited by HBO's first episode. There is one more bit of rant left... and that is to those who would argue that this is pure fantasy. It's not.. not really. Game of Thrones is really about people trying to become Kings and Queens. The politics, war, back stabbing, betrayal, and character developtment is awesome... Jamie develops quite nicely, the Imp is iconic, Daenerys etc etc... While this utterly human story develops there is a underling story developing with Winter coming, the White Walkers, Daenerys Dragons and magic beginning to seep back into existence... the "typical" fantasy elements are there but are so far in the background as to be rendered moot at this early stage of the game. They will eventually become main stories... but to shrug your shoulders at "another fantasy" would be to miss a master story teller's opus.

Re: This is unacceptable.

I'm just gonna throw this in:

I'm in my late 20s. In school I was "forced" to read 2 or more books per school-year for 13 years (Abitur). And believe me... that was not fun at all. Analyzing books and "what was the author's intention when he wrote the book" and all that BS can take away a lot of the fun. When I was still in school i didn't read a lot of other books. maybe 6 total, LotR-trilogy, The Vampire Lestat, Interview with a Vampire and Queen of the Damned. I'm currently reading "Christine" and I got myself a "Nikki Heat" novel that i'm gonna read soon big_smile Audiobooks.... I'm listening to "Sword of Truth" when i'm in the train to University when I don't have other things to do.

bottom line: i do read stuff, but school killed a lot of the fun reading can be.

Re: This is unacceptable.

wckiller wrote:

I'm just gonna throw this in:

I'm in my late 20s. In school I was "forced" to read 2 or more books per school-year for 13 years (Abitur). And believe me... that was not fun at all. Analyzing books and "what was the author's intention when he wrote the book" and all that BS can take away a lot of the fun. When I was still in school i didn't read a lot of other books. maybe 6 total, LotR-trilogy, The Vampire Lestat, Interview with a Vampire and Queen of the Damned. I'm currently reading "Christine" and I got myself a "Nikki Heat" novel that i'm gonna read soon big_smile Audiobooks.... I'm listening to "Sword of Truth" when i'm in the train to University when I don't have other things to do.

bottom line: i do read stuff, but school killed a lot of the fun reading can be.

hehe - I'm with you man! Although I read my fare share of books - maybe a couple of hundred - but nowadays I really can't find the time to read. Yep my watchlist is the culprit!

https://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=f2f78bbc2ae515f1a55746f794066001

Re: This is unacceptable.

I didn't get to read all of the book, but I'm halfway there! It was really slow the first 50 or so pages, but after that things got interesting.

Although I'm not finished with the book yet (I'm also one of those who likes reading before watching), I'm gonna dare watch the two episodes. Because of Easter, I haven't been able to until now.

And btw, the cabin wasn't hell wink Even though I didn't get to wash properly for six days.

Not just the Spanish maine my love. The entire ocean. The entire world!

http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=7b21315a0c2bce4fa4716b05990b6ff0

Re: This is unacceptable.

lol I will just when I find time. I thought about getting them in the summer big_smile

"Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool."
Richard P. Feynman

Re: This is unacceptable.

Think I'm going to read each book after each season, to not ruin a good watch but still get more story behind the plot and characters, that way it'll be more enjoyable going into the next season, with more knowledge but without spoilers. There's no right way to do this, all I'm saying is books and series can probably work great as complements to enhance each other. Guess I'll see if it was the right choice after I've read book 1 and seen season 2 smile

"At the end of time, a moment will come when just one man remains. Then the moment will pass.
Man will be gone. There will be nothing to show that we were ever here... but stardust."

Re: This is unacceptable.

From my point of view this is a good Tv-show, compared to all the other crap they tend to air.
so just enjoy it while it last, they will prob pull it before it comes full cycle anyway hmm

Re: This is unacceptable.

Jonny Bravo wrote:

From my point of view this is a good Tv-show, compared to all the other crap they tend to air.
so just enjoy it while it last, they will prob pull it before it comes full cycle anyway hmm

Seriously doubt that.

http://next-episode.net/img/ne-link.png

http://i.imgur.com/6zvYE.jpg
http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=fae192a45e22f2ea2fece89557aebb4c