Re: 2x18 - Epilogue

BlackBox wrote:
Halo2 wrote:
BlackBox wrote:

What brings us back to the black hole entering their system which causes many force majeure.

Eh?

I mean - cmon. A black hole is a major thing. Just imagine how fragile earth is, when we have some minor solar flares we get heavy weather disturbances or a weird season climate. So multiply that with a million and you can imagine how things change on a planet wink
It's not like "Oh look - there is a black hole - let's make plans for leaving the planet - we got many years of uninterupted planning ahead." tongue

Ah yeah I agree with you, just the word majeure completely confused me  tongue

Maybe they should of just built an Atlantis tongue
But they should have least been able to predict the effects of the blackhole on their planet, not necessarily when they happen, but what may happen. I wonder if they could have seen the effects in the night sky of the blackhole as soon as they arrived on the planet...?

yikes
http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=CurrentWatchlist&kk=c7a3e8c361aa2596859d8df3f4f10c1dhttp://next-episode.net/img/ne-link.pnghttp://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=c7a3e8c361aa2596859d8df3f4f10c1d
big_smile

Re: 2x18 - Epilogue

marco1475 wrote:

I think you guys are overestimating the usable knowledge the crew of the Destiny had when they arrived on Novus. They made it pretty clear that they had no books or recordings and only very few possessions.

Did you forget Kino? instead of recording pointless screwing around they could have recorded very much usable information. 
Wasn't it mentioned, that Eli wrote a ton of books?

marco1475 wrote:

So first of all you waste several hundred years of the 2000 they had to, according to you guys, invent FTL travel to build infrastructure and tools to even come close to what we now have - cement, electricity, computers, etc.

Second, while it is true they had a "2000-year head start" it means next to nothing without a record of the 2000-year knowledge. We all are products of 2000 (or even 6000, if you like) years of knowledge in a fully-developed society with a public school system that makes the collected knowledge of the past 6000 years available to all of us. Yet none of could, from scratch, produce electricity, build a car, engineer a computer, mine ore, heck probably even plant some edible seeds, grow them, and make bread.

how wrong are you here. as dumb as i am i'm 100% sure i can produce electricity from scratch.
plus i can plant my own food and grow it and crop it. you don't have to be a genius to do it.
and i'm quite sure if i'm forced to (due to the nature of situation) i can find and mine ore. the other thing is how to make iron from that ore. that i know i can't do.

marco1475 wrote:

...

and 2000 years ago we humans on this planet knew only wheel, fire and cement. and even during the dark 1000 years we forgot cement. (thank you religion)
with the people from destiny who are already smart when to consider a regular human being nowadays, and always a need to go forward not backwards, plus when two smart people produce offspring usually their kids are born smarter not dumber, people of Novus had more than plenty of time to make things happen. they did not have distractions we have here. crappy TV shows to waste time, constant bickering between different people, plus a knowledge that their planet will die soon.
i'm sure i did not make sense, but i hope some people understood.

"Avenge Me."
"Judgment Day is inevitable."
__________________________________________
My Watchlist

Re: 2x18 - Epilogue

GodZionu wrote:

when two smart people produce offspring usually their kids are born smarter

So when two dumb people produce an offspring the kids are born dumber? tongue
No - both statements are wrong. Smart people can get dumb kids and dumb people can get smart kids wink

GodZionu wrote:

they did not have distractions we have here. crappy TV shows to waste time, constant bickering between different people, plus a knowledge that their planet will die soon.

True - but the distractions only work, when there's nothing 'important' to do. You can ask the people in Africa how many tv shows they watch (not everywhere in Africa of course!) and then ask the same question in the USA wink
So yes - knowing the planet will die soon has a nice effect on the invention effort smile


One other thing I like to know is if they invented 'money'. Of course the Detiny people knew money, but they didn't use it and didn't have it. The whole crew was working without payment wink
Would be nice to know if the Stargate universe would evolve like the Star Trek universe wink

http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=f2f78bbc2ae515f1a55746f794066001

Re: 2x18 - Epilogue

BlackBox wrote:
GodZionu wrote:

when two smart people produce offspring usually their kids are born smarter

So when two dumb people produce an offspring the kids are born dumber? tongue
No - both statements are wrong. Smart people can get dumb kids and dumb people can get smart kids wink

It's one of those questions of nurture over nature.
You can argue that two smart parents will want the same life their children as what they had, and will educate the child throughout it's early life as well as push them to maximum achievement during school etc.
If you grow up in a smart environment, ie people around you, parents, friends, even stuff as simple as the books at home I think you're more likely to absorb the knowledge...

Don't get me wrong it's not that dumb parents wouldn't want this, but depending on how "dumb" they are they might be too dumb to do anything tongue

yikes
http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=CurrentWatchlist&kk=c7a3e8c361aa2596859d8df3f4f10c1dhttp://next-episode.net/img/ne-link.pnghttp://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=c7a3e8c361aa2596859d8df3f4f10c1d
big_smile

Re: 2x18 - Epilogue

Halo2 wrote:
BlackBox wrote:
GodZionu wrote:

when two smart people produce offspring usually their kids are born smarter

So when two dumb people produce an offspring the kids are born dumber? tongue
No - both statements are wrong. Smart people can get dumb kids and dumb people can get smart kids wink

It's one of those questions of nurture over nature.
You can argue that two smart parents will want the same life their children as what they had, and will educate the child throughout it's early life as well as push them to maximum achievement during school etc.
If you grow up in a smart environment, ie people around you, parents, friends, even stuff as simple as the books at home I think you're more likely to absorb the knowledge...

Don't get me wrong it's not that dumb parents wouldn't want this, but depending on how "dumb" they are they might be too dumb to do anything tongue

Hehe - I knew this argument would come. But in that special case - new planet - less people - it doesn't hold. And of course you have to define what dumb or smart really is. I would consider me a completely dumb when it comes to cooking but smart when it comes to building/inventing. So who would survive - the guy who knows how to cook but doesn't know how to build a shelter or the guy who knows how to build a house but doesn't know which fruit/meat to eat or how to prepare it? wink
Of course it's not that black and white - but still - our values don't necessarily apply in those situations.

http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=f2f78bbc2ae515f1a55746f794066001

Re: 2x18 - Epilogue

BlackBox wrote:
Halo2 wrote:
BlackBox wrote:

So when two dumb people produce an offspring the kids are born dumber? tongue
No - both statements are wrong. Smart people can get dumb kids and dumb people can get smart kids wink

It's one of those questions of nurture over nature.
You can argue that two smart parents will want the same life their children as what they had, and will educate the child throughout it's early life as well as push them to maximum achievement during school etc.
If you grow up in a smart environment, ie people around you, parents, friends, even stuff as simple as the books at home I think you're more likely to absorb the knowledge...

Don't get me wrong it's not that dumb parents wouldn't want this, but depending on how "dumb" they are they might be too dumb to do anything tongue

Hehe - I knew this argument would come. But in that special case - new planet - less people - it doesn't hold. And of course you have to define what dumb or smart really is. I would consider me a completely dumb when it comes to cooking but smart when it comes to building/inventing. So who would survive - the guy who knows how to cook but doesn't know how to build a shelter or the guy who knows how to build a house but doesn't know which fruit/meat to eat or how to prepare it? wink
Of course it's not that black and white - but still - our values don't necessarily apply in those situations.

God damn these forums tongue

yikes
http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=CurrentWatchlist&kk=c7a3e8c361aa2596859d8df3f4f10c1dhttp://next-episode.net/img/ne-link.pnghttp://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=c7a3e8c361aa2596859d8df3f4f10c1d
big_smile

Re: 2x18 - Epilogue

GodZionu wrote:
marco1475 wrote:

I think you guys are overestimating the usable knowledge the crew of the Destiny had when they arrived on Novus. They made it pretty clear that they had no books or recordings and only very few possessions.

Did you forget Kino? instead of recording pointless screwing around they could have recorded very much usable information. 
Wasn't it mentioned, that Eli wrote a ton of books?

What I meant was recordings of our previous knowledge. So unless someone went around the Destiny with the Kino and recorded everything that was in its database (or ever stuff that pertained to humans), they had no recordings of the previous knowledge that people before me were claiming gave them a head start.

Sure, they could record anything new and Eli wrote books. That is perfectly fine. My argument is that they could record only what they knew (as in knowledge already present in their minds) and that that knowledge is minuscule when compared to all the knowledge needed to create and operate a society as advanced as ours. And not only don't each of them possess enough information to re-create society (at even a much more basic level), their knowledge is very specialized to a particular sub-field of our knowledge - in the case of scientists almost absurdly specialized - and wouldn't be of much use at the beginning when the problem isn't theoretical mathematics but how to best build a shovel.

All I was saying is that yes, because they are smart and they have generic previous knowledge of how stuff works, they can re-invent many things much easier and faster than our ancestors could, which is why they covered basically 6000 years of our evolution in 2000 years, but they can't just create them exactly as we know them, because nobody knows everything that is needed. Plus you have take into account that even if they had the perfect knowledge of everything they needed to build and how it's supposed to be maintained, they had to adopt it for local phenomena, i.e. it's nice that you think you know how to find and mine ore, but what if the ore on Novus is completely different from the ore we know, has a higher melting point or is guarded by dragons?

And I am very glad you know how to do those things, but a) if that's true you are not most people, and b) I'd argue that anything you would do is leaves much to be desired when it comes to industrial scale, i.e. your system would feed you and a few people, but once it would be adapted to feed a whole city it would probably fail miserably. That's what I am talking about - there is so much specialized knowledge we currently have that it is impossible to know all of it and as any university graduate tells you, no matter which field you go into, you realize you've been taught mostly very simplified models of how the real world works.

GodZionu wrote:

they did not have distractions we have here. crappy TV shows to waste time, constant bickering between different people, plus a knowledge that their planet will die soon.

How do you know they didn't invent TV? You need relaxation after a hard day's work. I am sure they had professional sports, etc. And the same goes for money.

But there are two more interesting things to consider: One is the length of their year. Our year is the length of time it takes Earth to rotate around the sun. Keeping that time correct anywhere but on Earth is very difficult. Spaceships returning to Earth have to do it and often get it wrong, but why would people so far away from Earth and with no way to properly judge time keep to the same time system? I think it's safe to assume that their day, month, and year were much different from ours, because they were based on Novus' rotation and it's orbit around its star. That means that their 2000 years could be much longer or shorter than our 2000 years.

Second I think the fact that they didn't have wars slowed down their scientific development. It is a widely known fact that wars allow major shift / jumps forward in scientific research - the space race of the 1960s was a direct result of the rocket research done in World War II and ever since the big wars we didn't have any major scientific shifts or breakthroughs, we only had incremental improvements. So it could be argued that they might've discovered FTL if they had waged war for some of the last centuries they were on Novus ...

"We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go."
-- Colonel Tigh

http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=6a46bed7e7b08a8ca752faaaa99a03bd

Re: 2x18 - Epilogue

dear lord marco tongue why the hell you have to write so long. and yes i agree with you. did not think this way, of previous recordings.

i wanna argue a little bit about the length of the year. as far as i know a habitable planet in the solar system has to be about the same distance from the their Sun as Earth is from our Sun, otherwise a planet would not form oxygen we need. So basically a habitable planet for us puny humans has to be around the same distance (ok a planet might circle faster around the sun, but it's unlikely) as Earth.

"Avenge Me."
"Judgment Day is inevitable."
__________________________________________
My Watchlist

Re: 2x18 - Epilogue

GodZionu wrote:

dear lord marco tongue why the hell you have to write so long. and yes i agree with you. did not think this way, of previous recordings.

i wanna argue a little bit about the length of the year. as far as i know a habitable planet in the solar system has to be about the same distance from the their Sun as Earth is from our Sun, otherwise a planet would not form oxygen we need. So basically a habitable planet for us puny humans has to be around the same distance (ok a planet might circle faster around the sun, but it's unlikely) as Earth.

If their sun is larger than ours, the planet would orbit at a greater distance and therefore longer years...

yikes
http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=CurrentWatchlist&kk=c7a3e8c361aa2596859d8df3f4f10c1dhttp://next-episode.net/img/ne-link.pnghttp://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=c7a3e8c361aa2596859d8df3f4f10c1d
big_smile

Re: 2x18 - Epilogue

well, but what is the chance of having a habitable planet for humans to be circling a larger sun?

"Avenge Me."
"Judgment Day is inevitable."
__________________________________________
My Watchlist

Re: 2x18 - Epilogue

GodZionu wrote:

well, but what is the chance of having a habitable planet for humans to be circling a larger sun?

What's the chance of it being the same size as our sun? tongue

yikes
http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=CurrentWatchlist&kk=c7a3e8c361aa2596859d8df3f4f10c1dhttp://next-episode.net/img/ne-link.pnghttp://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=c7a3e8c361aa2596859d8df3f4f10c1d
big_smile

Re: 2x18 - Epilogue

Halo2 wrote:
GodZionu wrote:

well, but what is the chance of having a habitable planet for humans to be circling a larger sun?

What's the chance of it being the same size as our sun? tongue

Indeed - it's just about temperature. Larger sun and bigger distance or smaller sun and shorter distance and all is fine. And the rotation speed of the planet is another variable. Of course animals and plants would adjust to a different light/temperature/season cicle, but it's all possible. In fact it's more likely to be completely different than the same as on earth tongue

http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=f2f78bbc2ae515f1a55746f794066001

Re: 2x18 - Epilogue

I'm more bothered by the whole gravity thing... every planet or moon they have ever visited seams to have the exact same mass as earth.... what's the probability of that?

Re: 2x18 - Epilogue

Mxyzptlk wrote:

I'm more bothered by the whole gravity thing... every planet or moon they have ever visited seams to have the exact same mass as earth.... what's the probability of that?

I'm not to bothered by that due to the fact that Ancients was humanoids at first and it would most plausible that they only put gates on similair planets. Theres X planets in the universe but only Y gates the equation is possible due to the infinite size of the universe. But yeah it would have been nice with some gravitation and evolution(living in less or denser gravity) aspects.

http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=fc6e0c8d5093819af704928af7847383

Re: 2x18 - Epilogue

saturo wrote:
Mxyzptlk wrote:

I'm more bothered by the whole gravity thing... every planet or moon they have ever visited seams to have the exact same mass as earth.... what's the probability of that?

I'm not to bothered by that due to the fact that Ancients was humanoids at first and it would most plausible that they only put gates on similair planets. Theres X planets in the universe but only Y gates the equation is possible due to the infinite size of the universe. But yeah it would have been nice with some gravitation and evolution(living in less or denser gravity) aspects.

Well it's just a matter of special effects. And they just have this kind of vegetation near Vancouver tongue

Or take the language thingy. All speak the same language (English/American whatever - don't start it again!). Just imagine you travel 2000 years back in time and tried to talk to some people of you own village/town/country. You might understand them but it would be really hard (and no - they didn't speak British English in ancient Rome!). Now you have some people trapped on a planet for 2000 years and they speak exactly the same - impossible, but easy to film and easy for the viewers roll

http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=f2f78bbc2ae515f1a55746f794066001

Re: 2x18 - Epilogue

Gravity is not really something they can control. Personally i dont mind that some things need to be a certain way because of budget. When they spend a ton of work on making animals that make zero sense i can have a problem with it but not that vegetation is the way it is or something like that.

Re: 2x18 - Epilogue

Well, they mention a lot of gates being "locked out" : ie, Destiny tells them that they can't go there because of bad gravity/atmosphere/whatever...

http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=7ba07d44e4bb6dec90aa30d0563f83fd

Re: 2x18 - Epilogue

BlackBox wrote:

(and no - they didn't speak British English in ancient Rome!)

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
this can't be true http://i.imgur.com/iOod2.jpg





you spoiled everything now http://i.imgur.com/w10BN.jpg







http://i.imgur.com/OLqnY.jpg





























tongue

"Avenge Me."
"Judgment Day is inevitable."
__________________________________________
My Watchlist

94 (edited by Vana 2011-05-03 14:28:00)

Re: 2x18 - Epilogue

9thRequiem wrote:

Well, they mention a lot of gates being "locked out" : ie, Destiny tells them that they can't go there because of bad gravity/atmosphere/whatever...

Not sure to whom you're comment is pointed at, but it made me think and I'll answer anyway.

I don't know if it's mention throughout the series, but I imagine the crew believes that all gates where originally put on habitable planets by the ancients. Since millions of years have past, some planets may have lost that habitability (is that a word? tongue ), hence the gates being locked out.

But I also think that they put stargates on planets that weren't habitable yet.

Who knows how many gates have been made and put on planets. But I imagine a whole bunch are gone because of worlds being destroyed by natural forces.

Not just the Spanish maine my love. The entire ocean. The entire world!

http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=7b21315a0c2bce4fa4716b05990b6ff0

Re: 2x18 - Epilogue

Vana wrote:

but I imagine the crew believes that all gates where originally put on habitable planets by the ancients. Since millions of years have past

i belive you are a bit mistaken. at least in my opinion. Destiny and seed ships left Earth millions of years ago and it has taken them this long to reach where they are now. it does not mean that seeding ships are too far away.

"Avenge Me."
"Judgment Day is inevitable."
__________________________________________
My Watchlist

Re: 2x18 - Epilogue

GodZionu wrote:
Vana wrote:

but I imagine the crew believes that all gates where originally put on habitable planets by the ancients. Since millions of years have past

i belive you are a bit mistaken. at least in my opinion. Destiny and seed ships left Earth millions of years ago and it has taken them this long to reach where they are now. it does not mean that seeding ships are too far away.

Bad expression on my part! I was not only thinking about the Destiny and the seed-ships in SGU, but more in general and the gate-system as a whole.

Not just the Spanish maine my love. The entire ocean. The entire world!

http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=7b21315a0c2bce4fa4716b05990b6ff0