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251 Reply by Frimlin 2023-04-14 09:08:41 (edited by Frimlin 2023-04-14 09:08:55)
- Registered: 2016-06-09
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
merc wrote:So there is more than one queen? seems a contradiction in terms. The original queen we all knew from janeway and the films is the one that Agnes joined with? We will see what happens in eps 10. The only reason to think you may be right is that in eps 9 the cameras delliberately did not show the Borg queens face. We will see. I hope you are right. But it seems just one eps to sort it all out seems slim.
Just to clarify, I'm not trying to push a theory or be "right" I am just trying to explain what I saw and understood of the story so far. I do not know how many Queens there are, but let's assuming there's just one, that original one travelled back to the 21st Century, merged with Agnes, and continues on as part of the Agnes Queen and her new collective. As far as I understand this whole (very confusing) time travel "thing," the original Borg queen still exists though, seperate to that! By going back in time, it is "like" she was cloned because the she that she was, still exists in the past, but elsewhere - probably off in the Delta quadrant. Just because in one timeline, she travels to the past, does not mean she is removed from ever existing before that point as she originally was. Because of the changes Picard's team made in the 21st Century and/or because of Q's intervention, the original Borg queen continues unaffected when Picard's team is transported back onto the Stargazer and "everything is reset" by Q at the end of season 2. It's all very confusing, but hopefully you see what I mean?! Again, this is just my interpretation of what I've seen and I'm human, I could be wrong! Considering what sounded to me like Alice Krige's voice was in the Jack scenes in Episode 9 (similar to the evocative way we heard Majel's computer voice on the D), I think the Borg queen we're about to see will be played by her. This may simply only because of the heartbreaking loss of the actress who played the season 2 queen, though.
252 Reply by merc 2023-04-14 10:00:43 (edited by merc 2023-04-14 15:14:45)
- Registered: 2018-09-14
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
Frimlin wrote:..... Considering what sounded to me like Alice Krige's voice was in the Jack scenes in Episode 9 (similar to the evocative way we heard Majel's computer voice on the D), I think the Borg queen we're about to see will be played by her. This may simply only because of the heartbreaking loss of the actress who played the season 2 queen, though.
oh did she die? you mean the person who played Agnes? ( I can not find any info she has) That might explain why the story took a different disruptive unfortunate turn - "old queen re-asserts and kicks Agnes out" is they way they chose to resolve a dificult situation. The only info I read is "she wont be back in series 3 - was it her choice if not then my criticism still stands, they have screwed up - or even worse they regard the old queen as part of the old team of characters an honoury TNG- baddy so wanted to have all the oldies in the last and final season.
- Registered: 2016-06-09
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
merc wrote:oh did she die? you mean the person who played Agnes? ( I can not find any info she has)
No, Annie Wersching, the actress who played the non-Agnes Borg queen in season 2 - before she merged with Agnes.
254 Reply by paisley1 2023-04-14 18:59:19 (edited by paisley1 2023-04-24 04:15:50)
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
@Frimlin Welcome to the forums! Yay! You've been here since 2016 and haven't trolled us yet? Your Picard theory is quite the inference. Even if you're right, that was not spelled out well enough from the story; a lot of assumptions, conjecture, and guesswork based on TNG and Voyager isn't good story telling.
- Registered: 2018-09-14
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
Frimlin wrote:merc wrote:oh did she die? you mean the person who played Agnes? ( I can not find any info she has)
No, Annie Wersching, the actress who played the non-Agnes Borg queen in season 2 - before she merged with Agnes.
Then it is very strange Agnes-Borg has been dropped ( so i seems ) in season 3 and a new bad borg queen replace her. Seems bad story telling to me
- Registered: 2022-02-09
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
very disappointed that they made 25 and under into changeling enemies. WTF are they thinking? and I happen to be 76.
257 Reply by some_one 2023-04-14 23:14:58 (edited by some_one 2023-04-15 01:29:04)
- Registered: 2019-07-07
- Posts: 267
Re: Star Trek: Picard
merc wrote:Then it is very strange Agnes-Borg has been dropped ( so i seems ) in season 3 and a new bad borg queen replace her. Seems bad story telling to me
Again: the Agnes-queen (played by Pill & Wersching, the latter of whom died recently) is from another timeline. Which means roughly the same as "from another universe" here. She's a completely separate entity from the queen we saw in First Contact (which in turn may or may not be the same as the one from Voyager). It's thus also a completely seperate Borg collective that joined the Federation in S2. Whether they will show up again, who knows. It's the regular old Borg that are showing up now. I think I saw the name Alice Krige during the end credits. She played the queen in First Contact. It seems that it's her reprising the role now. The reason this season is so different might because they changed the showrunner. His previous show was 12 Monkeys, which at least explains why half the main cast of that show has shown up during this season. That one was kinda unhinged at times, but definitely wrapped up nicely. Here's hoping they manage to do the same on Picard. And as for the complaints about all those old people... eh. If you don't like it, go watch Strange New Worlds, Lower Decks or if - you're really bored - Discovery. This one serves as a late encore to TNG, much like the movies did for TOS, and it is doing so nicely right now, I would say.
258 Reply by merc 2023-04-15 09:31:04 (edited by merc 2023-04-15 09:39:05)
- Registered: 2018-09-14
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
@some_one. I am not sure what we have here are alternative time lines, (but simply time travel )which you seem to be regarding almost like the multi-universe idea - they all exist ? If I remember right Q did some trickery where a crucial decision was unmade in the current time line in the past then eventully restored it all & their place in it, bar some details like Rios being left in the past and Agnes merging with the borg queen & off she goes in Rios ship?. The season ends with Q sending us back to the present with us being told what happened to Rios and the meeting with the new Borg queen. So one time line just chopped and changed by Q. ( but not Agnes-Borg)So you cannot get away with saying the Agnes-Borg queen is in another time line not the current season 3 one. The writers have messed up big time, in ending a story expectation ( season 2 end) before it started in season 3 ) As for oldies - nothing against them just this show is called "Picard" and we expected it to be about him not the TNG crew as it has grown to be. I think they ran out of ideas for just Picard. Season 1 was the show they intended. Not season 3. I suspect it was made based on viewers loving the previous seasons ( =$$$$) not for "artistic reasons"
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
merc, how can you be so critical with this show's story-telling, while you at the same time love shows with very simplistic story-telling? And of course hardly any show is made just for "artistic reasons"... Commercial stations want to get viewers to sell ads, streamers want to sell subscriptions/ keep subscribers entertained enough to keep paying.
260 Reply by merc 2023-04-15 10:47:18 (edited by merc 2023-04-15 10:50:43)
- Registered: 2018-09-14
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
lighton wrote:merc, how can you be so critical with this show's story-telling, while you at the same time love shows with very simplistic story-telling? And of course hardly any show is made just for "artistic reasons"... Commercial stations want to get viewers to sell ads, streamers want to sell subscriptions/ keep subscribers entertained enough to keep paying.
In this case I feel robbed of the Agnes-borg queen super-portal story we were seemed to be promised at the end of season 2 thats why. simplistic story telling like what? nothing wrong with simple story telling. But in this case it seems to be manipulative with no pretense of standards
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- lighton
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
merc wrote:lighton wrote:merc, how can you be so critical with this show's story-telling, while you at the same time love shows with very simplistic story-telling? And of course hardly any show is made just for "artistic reasons"... Commercial stations want to get viewers to sell ads, streamers want to sell subscriptions/ keep subscribers entertained enough to keep paying.
In this case I feel robbed of the Agnes-borg queen super-portal story we were seemed to be promised at the end of season 2 thats why. simplistic story telling like what? nothing wrong with simple story telling. But in this case it seems to be manipulative with no pretense of standards
Simplistic as in Stargirl for example. Yes, "seemed to be promised". I am very forgiving when it comes to changes in a story, especially when the outcome is as good as this final season! Who knows, maybe they had planned to start this season in a certain way, but after filming and airing the last season they realized they had to change the story to deliver something even better?
263 Reply by merc 2023-04-15 16:33:08 (edited by merc 2023-04-15 16:35:17)
- Registered: 2018-09-14
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
lighton wrote:Simplistic as in Stargirl for example. Yes, "seemed to be promised". I am very forgiving when it comes to changes in a story, especially when the outcome is as good as this final season! Who knows, maybe they had planned to start this season in a certain way, but after filming and airing the last season they realized they had to change the story to deliver something even better?
we interpret their change of mind differently. I thought you were going to hilight Wednesday which is really a vehicle for the diminutive, very short cute Jenna Ortega to talk down to every one with her often absurd words of wisdom, that is nevertheless fun. As for Stargirl it delivered what it promised with nice misdirections esp in the last season and was a useful addition to the superhero comic book genre with its wit and performances. Picard though has pretensions, not sure what they are though. My grouse is with the people calling the shots not the actual seasons. Maybe they needed one season in between season 2 and the last one, the real 3rd being the continuation of season 2, so 4 in all- They should have known that at the start, they seemed to be making it up as they went along.
264 Reply by paisley1 2023-04-15 17:12:01 (edited by paisley1 2023-04-15 18:30:10)
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
henerey wrote:very disappointed that they made 25 and under into changeling enemies. WTF are they thinking? and I happen to be 76.
imadsani wrote:so much fan service!
The most epic fan service and the most triumphant last hurrah requires this level of contrivance. It's glorious! Like, how else would they put events together perfectly so that everyone in the entire Federation would need the help of the TNG team, than to "Borgify" (Raffi's word not mine) everyone 25 and under and kill off as many starfleet Admirals and Captains in the Federation as they could, then just so happen to have Geordi working on a pet project that puts the team back on the Enterprise D, to save the day. Like how else could they do it? How? LOLZ. /S It's so far fetched it plays out like a dream sequence, full Newhart; like what if Picard just wakes up back in his orchard somewhere with a bottle of wine in his hand, and tells Beverly about this crazy dream he just had? lolz Newhart Finale. It's that far fetched, but I love it. *Also, anyone else immediately notice how Galactica the Enterprise D is in being analog and disconnected from the network? They get away with it because, Ronald D. Moore, but, still, I've seen this before! (Imagine a reboot of this reboot with Ronald D. Moore and Brannon Braga writing and directing....I can't even.)
- Registered: 2016-06-09
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
The last episode brought a tear to my eye. Great fun for us old guys
- Registered: 2019-07-07
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
merc wrote:@some_one. I am not sure what we have here are alternative time lines, (but simply time travel )which you seem to be regarding almost like the multi-universe idea - they all exist ? If I remember right Q did some trickery where a crucial decision was unmade in the current time line in the past then eventully restored it all & their place in it, bar some details like Rios being left in the past and Agnes merging with the borg queen & off she goes in Rios ship?. The season ends with Q sending us back to the present with us being told what happened to Rios and the meeting with the new Borg queen. So one time line just chopped and changed by Q. ( but not Agnes-Borg)So you cannot get away with saying the Agnes-Borg queen is in another time line not the current season 3 one. The writers have messed up big time, in ending a story expectation ( season 2 end) before it started in season 3 )
Timelines are functionally the same as alternate universes in many ways. Depending on how it's done, it can also be literally the same, but there's no need to discuss that right now. Regardless, the point is: the other Borg queen from S2 existed in an alternate timeline, then traveled back in time to before those timelines diverged. Her timeline of origin was then erased, but she was not. Instead, she lived (sort of, as a part of Agnes) through the regular old timeline from that point forward. Meaning she is still a separate being from the regular Borg queen and her point of origin simply no longer exists. That's effectively the same as being from another universe you can't get back to. merc wrote:In this case I feel robbed of the Agnes-borg queen super-portal story we were seemed to be promised at the end of season 2 thats why.
Yeah that's a bit of a shame. Maybe the final episode will reference back to it in some way and provide a conclusion, that's part of why I mentioned 12 Monkeys: they did out-of-nowhere stuff like that. But generally speaking, all they did this season was go all in on what a lot of the people watching this show wanted to see. And by most accounts, it seems they succeeded. I'm surprised they brought in Shelby as the fleet admiral. Just in case anyone was wondering where she had ended up? Having coincidentally rewatched that old TNG episode the day before, I actually had been for a second.
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
Thanks, some_one, I had totally forgotten about Elizabeth Shelby. Too many years had passed...
268 Reply by merc 2023-04-15 20:10:39 (edited by merc 2023-04-15 20:11:42)
- Registered: 2018-09-14
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
@some_one: we still disagree over there being more than one borg queen. How many kings or queens of the UK or Spain or ... are there - just one. So at best the writers are taking a liberty with that notion. Also on the matter of timelines. There is only one and Q messed around with it leaving Agnes-borg still waiting at the portal when all this changeling stuff is happening - there is only that borg queen this other one does not exist, or only exists courtesy of the stupidity of the writers laziness
- Registered: 2019-07-07
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
merc wrote:Also on the matter of timelines. There is only one and Q messed around with it leaving Agnes-borg still waiting at the portal when all this changeling stuff is happening - there is only that borg queen this other one does not exist, or only exists courtesy of the stupidity of the writers laziness
That is... just entirely not how time travel works in any serious form of western scifi... and definitely not on Star Trek... it's Doctor Who logic at best. The thing Q did was not one of his illusions. It was regular time travel, with some minor Q stuff on top (like giving them their memories from the original timeline). The queen that merged with Agnes maybe shouldn't be able to exist, but there is definitely not a single reason to assume she was somehow re-merged with the queen from the regular timeline. merc wrote:we still disagree over there being more than one borg queen. How many kings or queens of the UK or Spain or ... are there - just one. So at best the writers are taking a liberty with that notion.
Well if you insist on using that "logic"... there should only ever be one Pope. Except no, historically that has been very debatable. Hell, depending on who you ask (like, for example, the catholic church itself), there actually were two of them until just recently. So then, what is your point here? Two separate Borg collectives, each having one queen. Totaling two different queens. Surely that cannot be such a wild concept?
270 Reply by merc 2023-04-20 19:28:08 (edited by merc 2023-04-20 20:52:58)
- Registered: 2018-09-14
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
eps 10: we need a puking smiley? and some people here have the nerve to complain about Stargirl! inclined to set up a poll as to how many tissues you used in watching this maudlin obscenity. They gave up a perfectly good idea at the end of season 2 for this pathetic concoction
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
Well all I can say is thank f*** it's over. That last season was horrible to watch. I actually agree with merc for once
DRM "manages access" in the same way that Prison "manages freedom". http://xkcd.com/488/
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
Could the final episode have been better? Sure! But I still (mostly) enjoyed it.
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
lighton wrote:Could the final episode have been better? Sure! But I still (mostly) enjoyed it.
Me too. No show is perfect, but I enjoyed this season even if it seems I'm in the minority. I get the feeling from alot of the comments here that I'm way older than most of us here, and maybe this was a series for us nostalgic old folk, that watched TNG when it first aired? Hmmm.
2020. Meh.
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
graybags wrote:lighton wrote:Could the final episode have been better? Sure! But I still (mostly) enjoyed it.
Me too. No show is perfect, but I enjoyed this season even if it seems I'm in the minority. I get the feeling from alot of the comments here that I'm way older than most of us here, and maybe this was a series for us nostalgic old folk, that watched TNG when it first aired? Hmmm.
I am an OAP so know what old is. This show confused the show plot with actors bowing out retiring esp Stewart. ▼Spoiler The only good thing about eps 10 was the last few moments when Q ( I thought he had DIED - another change of mind) told us the old crowd wont be coming back ( But I bet they will if a story starts to lose punters)
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Re: Star Trek: Picard
graybags wrote:I enjoyed this season even if it seems I'm in the minority. I get the feeling from alot of the comments here that I'm way older than most of us here, and maybe this was a series for us nostalgic old folk, that watched TNG when it first aired? Hmmm.
Hmmmmmm.... perhaps you're onto something... Maybe it was for folks who enjoyed watching TNG, whether they watched it back then or more recently? Thus being more forgiving because you already have some kind of relationship with the cast?
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