1 (edited by marco1475 2011-09-24 22:46:48)

Topic: 6x12 Closing Time

Sooo ... Do I understand it correctly that between 6x11 and 6x12 more than 195 years have passed for the Doctor? He mentioned in The Impossible Astronaut that he was 1103 years old, but the younger version that showed up after his death was 908 and now we have the Doctor who "was alone for a while" showing up and going to Lake Silencio to meet his death "tomorrow."

I know I bitched about River's story being too compressed in Let's Kill Hitler, but jumping almost 200 years between episodes is ridiculous. It also quenches my excitement for the time span of the story I felt at the beginning of the season. "The Doctor who died was two hundred years older that means they will resolve the storyline in two, maybe three seasons from now." Well, turns out I was wrong.

Also I can't help and feel the same way now about the surprise appearance of the eye-patch lady and the Silents, as I did about River's turning from evil in Let's Kill Hitler. It feels "too little, too late." It's very much "oh yeah, and then there's this which we need to have all the pieces in place for the finale." The clue is just dropped in, with no build up, no warning, it just is. I would have much preferred a hint about River not being free at the end of Let's Kill Hitler rather than now. Not to mention that River being in the space suit isn't a twist, but more like a fulfilled expectation which we had since The Impossible Astronaut. It feels very simple and plain, no surprises or anything.

If I am honest I am disappointed at the haphazard quality of the writing this season. In comparison season 5 seems to be meticulously constructed and perfect, while season 6 feels full of holes, retcons and omissions, disjointed, chaotic, and rushed. I will admit that this could all be Moffat's plan and he might bring it all back together in the last episode, as he did in season 5. Maybe he will fill the holes and gaps and once all is said and done it will make perfect sense. But the rushed story of River is rather a different thing from the Doctor's out-of-continuity jacket, so I am not very optimistic.

"We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go."
-- Colonel Tigh

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2

Re: 6x12 Closing Time

Well for me I thought this was the best episode of the second half of the season. It felt like a Doctor Who episode from last season or earlier in the year were everything made sense and the logical reason for things happening was pretty well done in comparison to some episodes in this second half. I thought it was a nice refreshing episode after the past few who seemed to try and be overly complicated and kind of boring. Is it sad that I like Matt Smith as The Doctor more without Amy and Rory with him? Think after so many episodes centric on them I kind of got burnt out on them.

The age thing never bothered me when The Doctor made a note that he was 200years older, since I've always assumed he was lying. I've always thought the point of saying he was that old was just to give the three companions the false sense of him being around for a lot longer and so that they never knew when he was going to die and be worried about it.

The reveal of the Silence Memory eraser guys and the eye-patch women always being around River made sense to me. Them not being there would be more confusing to me actually, since Let's Kill Hitler wrap-up of River trying to kill The Doctor was such a colossal let down after the previous episodes hype, that this actually makes LKH make more sense. It seems like the point of LKH was a diversion for the attack on the beach.

Also I really don't see how it could be anyone else besides River in the space suit. I know we figured that out by guessing after the season premier, but at the time that was simply a guess at the same time it couldn't be anyone else. We know River is in prison for killing the greatest man she ever knew which is obviously The Doctor. Any other reveal of who was in the space suit or who River killed would be a let down for me since it's done nicely in the story and I think anything else would be to clever for it's own good and over thinking it.

Another note from this episode is I like the nice little touch of Amy and Rory in the store and the reveal of the ad Amy was on. To me that was perfect closer to their storyline and part of me hopes there not on next season since I really don't see what more needs to be continued from that. It really seemed like the best closing note on a companion storyline to this date.

3

Re: 6x12 Closing Time

that was a really good read.... now to watch the episode, very excited big_smile

Game Over
10 Years and counting

4

Re: 6x12 Closing Time

this one was really good. i didn't like the fast-forward to the older Doctor aspect, but really looking toward next sunday...

PS. a footnote
http://airlockalpha.com/node/8713/capt- … rsary.html
http://airlockalpha.com/node/8696/will- … rsary.html

what doesn't kill you - hurts even more...

5 (edited by Kal 2011-09-25 12:47:16)

Re: 6x12 Closing Time

marco1475 wrote:

Sooo ... Do I understand it correctly that between 6x11 and 6x12 more than 195 years have passed for the Doctor?

No, I don't think so.  The explanation for that has yet to come.  There have been several episodes where the Doctor has been alone in the TARDIS; once that thing de-materialises, it doesn't matter that we see it re-materialise in the very next scene, there's space there for the writers to put in whatever they want in that gap.  One place that stands out for me as a place where that might happen is during the Doctor's "death" by poison in 6x10 - I don't believe it was just the Doctor being eccentric as the explanation for him turning up in the same top-hat-and-tails outfit as he wore back when he rebooted the universe that time....

On top of that, we've got the whole of the next episode. I saw pterodactyls amongst other things; who knows what the hell is going to go on there.  However much that clock might be tick-tocking down, he's not going to go straight there with his envelopes and stetson, we've got a bit more to come yet.  Lastly, I'm not even entirely convinced that the guy who claimed to be 1103 was the actual Doctor.  Just saying....

So, the metal eyepatches then.  We know that that's all about now - they are to let the wearer see the Silence (or whatever they are called) without immediately forgetting.  We see one on Kevorkian who is clearly able to recall them in the scene with River at the end of 6x11, we've seen one without explanation on River in several previews, and finally, in the prequel to next week's episode we see two soldiers, both wearing metal eyepatches, and both interacting with "Silents".  I think it's a safe bet that's the deal with the eyepatches.

The Doctor's death "tomorrow"?  I think that Kevorkian was very smug when she told the Doctor how she had fooled him not just once, but twice. The Doctor is going to have an even better trick up his sleeve when he fools not just Kevorkian, but the whole of recorded history into believing he died - using the same trick.

Who knows what the natural lifespan of a flesh avatar stabilised by the TARDIS might be.  I'm puzzled by the regeneration (and mid-regeneration death) though, if that really is the big "twist".

6

Re: 6x12 Closing Time

Wow next episode looks AWESOME! is this the last season of Doctor Who?

Also WTF?!?! i thought it was a lil girl in the Space suit not the grown up river.....

https://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=071d72c7453e5db8a71bc6f6abea38bc

7 (edited by marco1475 2011-09-25 14:47:53)

Re: 6x12 Closing Time

Rwings wrote:

The age thing never bothered me when The Doctor made a note that he was 200years older, since I've always assumed he was lying. I've always thought the point of saying he was that old was just to give the three companions the false sense of him being around for a lot longer and so that they never knew when he was going to die and be worried about it.

I did not think of that. Of course he could be lying and that makes perfect sense. That explains everything and now I am convinced we didn't jump 195 years into the Doctor's future.

Rwings wrote:

The reveal of the Silence Memory eraser guys and the eye-patch women always being around River made sense to me. Them not being there would be more confusing to me actually, since Let's Kill Hitler wrap-up of River trying to kill The Doctor was such a colossal let down after the previous episodes hype, that this actually makes LKH make more sense. It seems like the point of LKH was a diversion for the attack on the beach.

True, that makes sense as well, but it feels very much like a made-for-TV diversion. In any war, having your most valuable asset (half-Timelord child) lose all but one of her regenerations in a distraction seems like a very flawed plan. It's not like they had her do it to win the Doctor's confidence to let her be around and kill him when his back is turned. After that the Doctor might trust River, but River didn't hang around, she went off and studied, became an archaeologist. And she got into that suit also without the Doctor's knowledge, so gaining the Doctor's confidence seems pointless, because they could have just as easily put evil (young) River into the suit and it wouldn't have made a difference.

(Now I will admit that the way I see the finale unfolding, the Doctor will find out that it's River in the suit and that will be the reason why he'll allow her to kill him, as a way of saving her. So it being the new, good River does make sense.)

Rwings wrote:

Also I really don't see how it could be anyone else besides River in the space suit. I know we figured that out by guessing after the season premier, but at the time that was simply a guess at the same time it couldn't be anyone else. We know River is in prison for killing the greatest man she ever knew which is obviously The Doctor. Any other reveal of who was in the space suit or who River killed would be a let down for me since it's done nicely in the story and I think anything else would be to clever for it's own good and over thinking it.

Again, agree with you there, it makes sense, but the mystery of who was in the suit seemed so central at the beginning of the season and the show usually isn't that straightforward with its hints. We were explicitly told in The Impossible Astronaut that it was a little girl in the suit and then in Day of the Moon and A Good Man Goes to War we learned the girl was young River, so the only mystery remaining was whether or not it was River in suit as well when the suit kills the Doctor. And "yes, it is grown-up River" isn't an answer to a mystery, more like a confirmation of known facts and feels ... hollow.

Rwings wrote:

Another note from this episode is I like the nice little touch of Amy and Rory in the store and the reveal of the ad Amy was on. To me that was perfect closer to their storyline and part of me hopes there not on next season since I really don't see what more needs to be continued from that. It really seemed like the best closing note on a companion storyline to this date.

I liked that too and it might possibly the end of their story - if you remember we saw them together and possibly happy in The Hungry Earth in 2020 waving to the Doctor and themselves from a far-off ledge - but I don't think so. If it wasn't clear enough before Closing Time said it explicitly that one of the themes of the season is how the Doctor needs companions and can't do what he does alone. So I expect Amy and Rory will be back next season and I would be very surprised if that wasn't the case. (Does anyone know if Karen Gillian and Arthur Darvill signed contracts for next year?) Also Rory in my eyes is one of the best developed companions since forever and would hate to not have him around next season. The same goes for Amy's off-the-scale hotness, but that goes without saying smile

Kal wrote:

One place that stands out for me as a place where that might happen is during the Doctor's "death" by poison in 6x10 - I don't believe it was just the Doctor being eccentric as the explanation for him turning up in the same top-hat-and-tails outfit as he wore back when he rebooted the universe that time....

Oooh, good catch. I didn't not make that connection. That might be something worth remembering.

Kal wrote:

Lastly, I'm not even entirely convinced that the guy who claimed to be 1103 was the actual Doctor.  Just saying.... [..] Who knows what the natural lifespan of a flesh avatar stabilised by the TARDIS might be.  I'm puzzled by the regeneration (and mid-regeneration death) though, if that really is the big "twist".

Yeah, maybe. It would fit with the "flesh" episodes and Amy's reveal, but there still is the beginning regeneration during which the Doctor gets killed. Flesh when killed becomes liquid and falls apart. But the TARDIS could have faked that. After all the Doctor in America greets Amy and Rory on a car, with no TARDIS in sight. We don't know where he stashed it. We always assumes since he knew he went to his death he made sure no one would find the TARDIS and misuse it after he's gone, but now he might be using TARDIS to play tricks on the Silents (which were at the lake, because Amy saw them on the ridge) and eye-patch lady.

Kal wrote:

So, the metal eyepatches then.  We know that that's all about now - they are to let the wearer see the Silence (or whatever they are called) without immediately forgetting.  We see one on Kevorkian who is clearly able to recall them in the scene with River at the end of 6x11, we've seen one without explanation on River in several previews, and finally, in the prequel to next week's episode we see two soldiers, both wearing metal eyepatches, and both interacting with "Silents".  I think it's a safe bet that's the deal with the eyepatches.

Nice, again I did not make that connection, but the explanation is great. I also liked eye-patch lady's line about "they are your owners." Creepy.

"We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go."
-- Colonel Tigh

http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=6a46bed7e7b08a8ca752faaaa99a03bd

8

Re: 6x12 Closing Time

marco1475 wrote:
Rwings wrote:

The age thing never bothered me when The Doctor made a note that he was 200years older, since I've always assumed he was lying. I've always thought the point of saying he was that old was just to give the three companions the false sense of him being around for a lot longer and so that they never knew when he was going to die and be worried about it.

I did not think of that. Of course he could be lying and that makes perfect sense. That explains everything and now I am convinced we didn't jump 195 years into the Doctor's future.

Wait up though; you also need to consider "Jim the Fish".  When Doctor+195 and River compared notes, they had had a lot more adventures together including the "Jim the Fish" thing.  We haven't seen any of that; it could be off-camera I suppose but I doubt that very much.  If nothing else, as far as we know, the Doctor isn't even keeping a diary yet with which to compare notes with River - certainly we've never seen one to date.

So - I don't think we can just ignore that 195 year thing as a lie.  Not a complete lie, anyway, and there's nothing to say that it couldn't be something that he and River have cooked up together to fool everyone else.  Guess we'll see!

9

Re: 6x12 Closing Time

As for my comment about Lets Kill Hitler I was kind of wavering as I typed it, I know there as to be something up with that episode that were missing since it made no sense at the time, the guess at it being a diversion isn't something I believe fully, just trying to figure out what were missing from that episode...since there's got to be something right?

As for the age thing I did forget he had a diary and made reverence to being all caught up with River...but my guess to that is he took the book from the Library were River 'died'. Him really being caught up or at least that caught up would be kind of strange and make that storyline feel extremely rushed making LKH feel slow in comparison.

10

Re: 6x12 Closing Time

I thought we agreed that Marco wouldnt post anymore about doctor who

I think the Doctor might have broken his "lies per episode" record in the 6x12 episode. Overall a very good episode. The cybermen lacked a bit but as they were just a prop for the main story i didnt mind that.

Really excited about the conclusion of this season. It better be a 2 hour special cause they got a lot of storytelling to do and things to tie up. I am a bit nervous cause my expectations are very high. I know Matt Smith will be amazing and that Karen Gillan and Arthur Darvill will do well.

Since there are a ton of things they told us from the diary that havent happened yet i assume most of those things will happen after River kills the doctor. My first thought was that they will use the collected knowledge from the last two seasons to save the doctor. I am sure there have been small comments by the doctor and possibly others that would help us puzzle some of it together but usually those things dont make sense until afterwards.

I dont know if they will have time to deal with all the bad guys this season. I have been expecting that is something for next season. The doctor would need help from Amy and Rory if he is to deal with the silence and all the others involved. The eye patch women cant be the mastermind. I dont remember what we learned about that from the episode where the doctor saved amy from being a captive.

11 (edited by marco1475 2011-09-26 01:30:31)

Re: 6x12 Closing Time

As for Jimmy the Fish, true, they were comparing diaries, but the Doctor's answer to River's questions have been kind of non-committal and vague.  "Jim the Fish? He's fine ... still building his dam," is not the clearest of answers and definitely something the Doctor could have guessed from the context.

The other thing is, if River was in the astronaut suit and killed the Doctor, why wasn't she more distressed before the Doctor was killed at the lake in The Impossible Astronaut? She was as surprised as anyone when the astronaut appeared and killed the Doctor. You could argue that the Silents wiped her memory again, the way the eye-patch woman seemed to imply at the end of Closing Time, but then River has always been saying that she "killed the best man she ever knew" and we all assume she meant the Doctor (and was in prison for it).

River also broke out of prison at the beginning of The Impossible Astronaut to attend the meet-up in Utah so you can't argue that in her timeline she first saw the Doctor die in Utah, was then abducted by the Silents and put in the suit (as seen at the end of Closing Time), killed the Doctor, and then went to prison where all her future meetings with the Doctor (in his past, the ones we've seen already) started. In addition, the ending of Closing Time made it look like she was abducted after she finished getting a PhD in archaeology, which happened right after she turned good in Let's Kill Hitler, i.e. after she regenerated from Mels to River.

As for the diary I thought we've seen the genesis of River's diary at least in Let's Kill Hitler, I think. Didn't the Doctor give River or leave her with an empty blue book? But it is true we have not seen the Doctor write in his diary yet, unless it happens off camera which is unlikely ...

The trouble with a time war is that the causalities are very hard to follow. And while I think the Moff doing a great job so far I would really like to read a good sci-fi novel that would intelligently describe the intricacies of a time war in detail ...

"We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go."
-- Colonel Tigh

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12

Re: 6x12 Closing Time

marco1475 wrote:

...I would really like to read a good sci-fi novel that would intelligently describe the intricacies of a time war in detail ...

so would i, that just sounds intriguing

PS. so would Moffat (i'd imagine), so he could lift off some ideas from it smile

what doesn't kill you - hurts even more...

13

Re: 6x12 Closing Time

marco1475 wrote:

The other thing is, if River was in the astronaut suit and killed the Doctor, why wasn't she more distressed before the Doctor was killed at the lake in The Impossible Astronaut? She was as surprised as anyone when the astronaut appeared and killed the Doctor. You could argue that the Silents wiped her memory again, the way the eye-patch woman seemed to imply at the end of Closing Time, but then River has always been saying that she "killed the best man she ever knew" and we all assume she meant the Doctor (and was in prison for it).

My take on this is a combination of Silent-memory wipe and my overall theory for the Doctor's death.  If the entire universe - all of recorded history - is convinced that the Doctor died on a particular date and that is an unchangeable, fixed point in time, is it really that much of a stretch for River to rank among the convinced, even if she can't actually remember it herself?

14

Re: 6x12 Closing Time

Kal wrote:
marco1475 wrote:

The other thing is, if River was in the astronaut suit and killed the Doctor, why wasn't she more distressed before the Doctor was killed at the lake in The Impossible Astronaut? She was as surprised as anyone when the astronaut appeared and killed the Doctor. You could argue that the Silents wiped her memory again, the way the eye-patch woman seemed to imply at the end of Closing Time, but then River has always been saying that she "killed the best man she ever knew" and we all assume she meant the Doctor (and was in prison for it).

My take on this is a combination of Silent-memory wipe and my overall theory for the Doctor's death.  If the entire universe - all of recorded history - is convinced that the Doctor died on a particular date and that is an unchangeable, fixed point in time, is it really that much of a stretch for River to rank among the convinced, even if she can't actually remember it herself?

So what you are saying is that she is in prison for a crime she doesn't remember committing, doesn't know when or where it happened (even if she didn't remember she would recognize Lake Silencio in Utah in 2011 as an important time and place, as she had to aim for it with her time machine), yet remembers the Doctor and knows he was the "best man she ever knew?" That's kind of weak - even if she couldn't remember but was convinced she did the crime, if nothing else she would at least research the crime, what happened how and why. Simple curiosity with lots of spare time would drive you to it, not to mention River's own inquisitive mind and the urge to know everything about the death of a loved one ...

"We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go."
-- Colonel Tigh

http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=6a46bed7e7b08a8ca752faaaa99a03bd