Re: the Books vs. the Show

nivalis wrote:

Less popular theories that could be true:

Spoiler

Snarks = Starks
Benjen = Daario Naharis

what do you think?

No offense at all, but how the hell is it possible that :

Spoiler

benjen = naharis

And where did u read this?

My Watchlist
http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=8df04488f42411d9eab75dead36fb302

102 (edited by drizzel 2014-01-30 09:31:13)

Re: the Books vs. the Show

Dunc and Egg

Spoiler

Ive been putting some time into the short stories about dunc and egg. They are a bit different but I would still like to see them be made into something with HBO. Maybe they could be tv-movies since they are not long enough for a tv-show.
Might be problems finding someone young and tall to play Duncan.

I would imagine that there are at least one descendant in the game of thrones of Duncan the Tall. I guess we will not know for sure until we have had more short stories about him to know where he ends up and so on. I imagine that Brienne could be one since her description seem to fit very well with Duncan. Very tall and often taken to be a bit dumb even if she might not be.

Anyone else have any theories?

103 (edited by tfurrows 2014-02-22 23:44:50)

Re: the Books vs. the Show

Strange indeed. I'm re-reading the series and  in the middle of Book 3 right now, when I get to that part you mentioned I'll have to pay more attention for sure.

Re: the Books vs. the Show

nivalis wrote:
soleron wrote:

No offense at all

None taken.

soleron wrote:

how the hell is it possible

Language. Well, it's a theory that's been discussed on A wiki of Ice and Fire and other places, but I believe it was first proved possible here:

Anyway if u check the comments below, they all kinda make fun of this guy, so don't believe anything u see on reddit.

My Watchlist
http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=8df04488f42411d9eab75dead36fb302

105 (edited by xzeal 2014-04-07 18:59:03)

Re: the Books vs. the Show

I am confused after the new episode.

Is Daario Naharis a faceless man or did they just change the actor.

I don't recall any mention of this from the books.

Re: the Books vs. the Show

They changed the actor. You dont think that the people around him would hace noticed that he looks completely different now?

I think the first Daario was just a dancer and not an actor. They probably noticed that he wouldnt be able to act as well as the role needed so they had to find someone else. The new one doesnt look as sinister but I am sure he will get a better performance in the long run.

107

Re: the Books vs. the Show

It's not made public why they changed the actor. Daario 1.0 is doing The Transporter as a young Frank Martin. He might be the one leaving the show.

http://www.themarysue.com/ed-skrein-post-got-role/

Not just the Spanish maine my love. The entire ocean. The entire world!

http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=7b21315a0c2bce4fa4716b05990b6ff0

108 (edited by apples 2014-05-17 16:03:14)

Re: the Books vs. the Show

Vana wrote:

It's not made public why they changed the actor. Daario 1.0 is doing The Transporter as a young Frank Martin. He might be the one leaving the show.

http://www.themarysue.com/ed-skrein-post-got-role/

spoilers from all books and sources:

Spoiler

Long story short: Because Daario is Euron.

Long story long:
Evidence from the books:

*similar physical appearance
*both have blue eyes
*Euron's location was unknown during Dany's conquests and left Westeros shortly after Victarion
*Daario wasn't in Meereen during Balon's assassination and Kingsmoot
*Euron brought a huge amount of swag to Kingsmoot
*Daario earned a huge amount of swag after the siege of Yunkai
*Euron's sure that Dany will marry him and he'll get the dragons
*Daario tried to convince Dany to organize Meereen's own Red Wedding, which is a weird coincidence
*The Warlock prophecy mentioned "three mounts you must ride, one to bed, one to dread and one to love." Dany has had sex with three men, Drogo, Hizdahr and Daario. Drogo is the one to love, Hizdahr is the one to bed so by elimination, Daario is the one to dread. Dany saw 'grey lips' when "dread" was mentioned. Euron has grey lips and is a GREYjoy.
"Dread powers" are used to describe the warlocks of Qarth, who drink shade of the evening. Who also drinks shade of the evening? Euron. It's mentioned in ACOK that "Pyat Pree's gifts will turn to dust in your hands." We all know that Euron's gifts are poisoned.
*Euron's the biggest threat Dany's facing (acc. to Moquorro)
*Daario is a pretty pointless character with an unknown motivations
*There were always month+ gaps between Euron's and Daario's sightings, almost two months long before Balon's assassination.
*It's implied that Euron's using quarthian warlock magick while sailing, so anything makes sense chronologically.
*Horn's ownership must be paid in blood - Euron killed a king once.
*Euron teases Asha by hinting that he can control the winds when she accuses him of murdering Balon
*Euron's introduced as a cunning chessmaster and seems to be playing Victarion in some way, yet he didn't do anything yet, and isn't even in Meereen.
*Euron also tried to sneak Ironborn in Oldtown by disguising them as Tyroshi - Daario is supposedly a Tyroshi
*GRRM said in a post-ADWD interview that there is more to Daario than there appears to be
*Daario leads a mercenary group called the Stormcrows
*Euron is known as "Crow's eye"
*Euron describing himself: "I am the storm, my lord. The first storm, and the last"

Evidence in the show:

*after Daario's actor being specified as "any race except caucasian" in the casting material, HBO made him white after all.
*Daario's actor getting replaced by a new one who looks like book Euron
*Daario leads the Second Sons - Euron is a second son
*in one of s4 trailers when Daario is on screen LF says "if they don't know who you are..."
*Daario's blades in the show show a women with hands covering their mouths, similar to how the prow of the silence - Euron's flagship - is described in A Feast for Crows
*Daario captures the Meereenese fleet during the siege of Meereen, something he wasn't ordered to do. Ironborn strength is at sea.

A Feast for Crows/A Dance with Dragons timeline:

*Daenerys I: ADWD 3 Daario has gone away to try and make an alliance with the Lharazeen (Unsuccessful)
*Daenerys II: ADWD 12 Daario is still away.
*Daenerys III: ADWD 17 Last time we see Dany before the Kingsmoot. She recieves a letter from the Stormcrows saying theyre returning from Lhazar. "The Stormcrows were still many days away"
*Kingsmoot - The Drowned Man (Aeron II): AFFC 20 Euron is present. 8 Chapters until the next Dany chapter.
*Daenerys IV: ADWD 24 "Storms rage within the walls and without" Daario returns to the city. At the end of the chapter she sends the Stormcrows away again. 10 chapters pass with no Euron or Dany
*The Reaver (Victarion II): AFFC 30 Euron is at the Shield Islands
*Daenerys V: ADWD 31 Dany orders for the sellswords to be recalled to the city She dreams of "Daario dead by the road as crows quarrelled over his corpse" The Second Sons return 8 days later, but the Stormcrows do not return.
*Daenerys VI: ADWD 37 17 Chapters later Daario returns to the city.
*Daario was not in Meereen during the Kingsmoot or during Eurons raids on the Shield Islands. He had plenty of time (if he had warlocks) to travel from place to place.

Dany's dream in ADWD:

"Beneath her coverlets she tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her … but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice."

Daenerys imagines herself kissing a man with blue lips. The only blue-lipped characters are the warlocks and Euron Greyjoy. Xaro Xhoan Daxos explicitly warns Dany to be wary of men with "cold hearts and blue lips".

*If you wanted to hide blue stained lips, a blue beard might just be the thing to wear.
*Daario has a blue beard.

AWOIAF contains this information:

    He tells her that she had not been gone a fortnight when Pyat Pree set out from Qarth with three of his fellow warlocks to seek her in Pentos, in order to seek revenge on her for the burning of the House of the Undying. This implies to readers that the warlocks are most likely the ones captured by Euron Greyjoy - who came across four warlocks when he captured a certain galleas out of Qarth.

Perhaps Pyat Pree coached Euron in the dark arts of the warlocks? Daenerys mentions while on the Balerion that "the warlocks never forget a wrong". If Pyat Pree taught Euron black magic, after being captured in Pentos, perhaps he instructed him to betray Daenerys and steal her dragons?

Samwell mentions in AGOT that two warlocks from Qarth were invited by his father to make him brave. They ordered Samwell to bathe in hot blood. In Dance, we have this exchange:

    "Only their shadows," Moqorro said. "One most of all. A tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood."

The blood magic used by those warlocks didn't work, but Xaro Xhoan Daxos tells us that magic is beginning to return.

"And so it was, then. But now? I am less certain. It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years. Ghost grass grows in the Garden of Gehane, phantom tortoises have been seen carrying messages between windowless houses on Warlock’s Way, and all the rats in the city are chewing off their tails."

We also learn this about the Silence:

"She has black sails, dark red hull and is infamous. Her decks are painted red to better hide the blood that soaked them."

Perhaps Euron is using warlock blood magic to make his ship travel faster?

Finally, TV-Show-Daario captures the Meereenese fleet during the siege of Meereen, something he wasn't ordered to do. Remember that Ironborn strength is at sea. He says that 93 ships were captured. Euron sails off with the same number of vessels, from the beginning of the "Iron Suitor" chapter of Dance.

"He had set sail from the Shields with ninety-three, of the hundred that had once made up the Iron Fleet."

Or, I mean, it's just a theory. He could be Benjen, or Moon Boy for all we know.

109 (edited by xzeal 2014-05-17 16:17:55)

Re: the Books vs. the Show

apples wrote:

spoilers from all books and sources:

Spoiler

Long story short: Because Daario is Euron.

Long story long:
Evidence from the books:

*similar physical appearance
*both have blue eyes
*Euron's location was unknown during Dany's conquests and left Westeros shortly after Victarion
*Daario wasn't in Meereen during Balon's assassination and Kingsmoot
*Euron brought a huge amount of swag to Kingsmoot
*Daario earned a huge amount of swag after the siege of Yunkai
*Euron's sure that Dany will marry him and he'll get the dragons
*Daario tried to convince Dany to organize Meereen's own Red Wedding, which is a weird coincidence
*The Warlock prophecy mentioned "three mounts you must ride, one to bed, one to dread and one to love." Dany has had sex with three men, Drogo, Hizdahr and Daario. Drogo is the one to love, Hizdahr is the one to bed so by elimination, Daario is the one to dread. Dany saw 'grey lips' when "dread" was mentioned. Euron has grey lips and is a GREYjoy.
"Dread powers" are used to describe the warlocks of Qarth, who drink shade of the evening. Who also drinks shade of the evening? Euron. It's mentioned in ACOK that "Pyat Pree's gifts will turn to dust in your hands." We all know that Euron's gifts are poisoned.
*Euron's the biggest threat Dany's facing (acc. to Moquorro)
*Daario is a pretty pointless character with an unknown motivations
*There were always month+ gaps between Euron's and Daario's sightings, almost two months long before Balon's assassination.
*It's implied that Euron's using quarthian warlock magick while sailing, so anything makes sense chronologically.
*Horn's ownership must be paid in blood - Euron killed a king once.
*Euron teases Asha by hinting that he can control the winds when she accuses him of murdering Balon
*Euron's introduced as a cunning chessmaster and seems to be playing Victarion in some way, yet he didn't do anything yet, and isn't even in Meereen.
*Euron also tried to sneak Ironborn in Oldtown by disguising them as Tyroshi - Daario is supposedly a Tyroshi
*GRRM said in a post-ADWD interview that there is more to Daario than there appears to be
*Daario leads a mercenary group called the Stormcrows
*Euron is known as "Crow's eye"
*Euron describing himself: "I am the storm, my lord. The first storm, and the last"

Evidence in the show:

*after Daario's actor being specified as "any race except caucasian" in the casting material, HBO made him white after all.
*Daario's actor getting replaced by a new one who looks like book Euron
*Daario leads the Second Sons - Euron is a second son
*in one of s4 trailers when Daario is on screen LF says "if they don't know who you are..."
*Daario's blades in the show show a women with hands covering their mouths, similar to how the prow of the silence - Euron's flagship - is described in A Feast for Crows
*Daario captures the Meereenese fleet during the siege of Meereen, something he wasn't ordered to do. Ironborn strength is at sea.

A Feast for Crows/A Dance with Dragons timeline:

*Daenerys I: ADWD 3 Daario has gone away to try and make an alliance with the Lharazeen (Unsuccessful)
*Daenerys II: ADWD 12 Daario is still away.
*Daenerys III: ADWD 17 Last time we see Dany before the Kingsmoot. She recieves a letter from the Stormcrows saying theyre returning from Lhazar. "The Stormcrows were still many days away"
*Kingsmoot - The Drowned Man (Aeron II): AFFC 20 Euron is present. 8 Chapters until the next Dany chapter.
*Daenerys IV: ADWD 24 "Storms rage within the walls and without" Daario returns to the city. At the end of the chapter she sends the Stormcrows away again. 10 chapters pass with no Euron or Dany
*The Reaver (Victarion II): AFFC 30 Euron is at the Shield Islands
*Daenerys V: ADWD 31 Dany orders for the sellswords to be recalled to the city She dreams of "Daario dead by the road as crows quarrelled over his corpse" The Second Sons return 8 days later, but the Stormcrows do not return.
*Daenerys VI: ADWD 37 17 Chapters later Daario returns to the city.
*Daario was not in Meereen during the Kingsmoot or during Eurons raids on the Shield Islands. He had plenty of time (if he had warlocks) to travel from place to place.

Dany's dream in ADWD:

"Beneath her coverlets she tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her … but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice."

Daenerys imagines herself kissing a man with blue lips. The only blue-lipped characters are the warlocks and Euron Greyjoy. Xaro Xhoan Daxos explicitly warns Dany to be wary of men with "cold hearts and blue lips".

*If you wanted to hide blue stained lips, a blue beard might just be the thing to wear.
*Daario has a blue beard.

AWOIAF contains this information:

    He tells her that she had not been gone a fortnight when Pyat Pree set out from Qarth with three of his fellow warlocks to seek her in Pentos, in order to seek revenge on her for the burning of the House of the Undying. This implies to readers that the warlocks are most likely the ones captured by Euron Greyjoy - who came across four warlocks when he captured a certain galleas out of Qarth.

Perhaps Pyat Pree coached Euron in the dark arts of the warlocks? Daenerys mentions while on the Balerion that "the warlocks never forget a wrong". If Pyat Pree taught Euron black magic, after being captured in Pentos, perhaps he instructed him to betray Daenerys and steal her dragons?

Samwell mentions in AGOT that two warlocks from Qarth were invited by his father to make him brave. They ordered Samwell to bathe in hot blood. In Dance, we have this exchange:

    "Only their shadows," Moqorro said. "One most of all. A tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood."

The blood magic used by those warlocks didn't work, but Xaro Xhoan Daxos tells us that magic is beginning to return.

"And so it was, then. But now? I am less certain. It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years. Ghost grass grows in the Garden of Gehane, phantom tortoises have been seen carrying messages between windowless houses on Warlock’s Way, and all the rats in the city are chewing off their tails."

We also learn this about the Silence:

"She has black sails, dark red hull and is infamous. Her decks are painted red to better hide the blood that soaked them."

Perhaps Euron is using warlock blood magic to make his ship travel faster?

Finally, TV-Show-Daario captures the Meereenese fleet during the siege of Meereen, something he wasn't ordered to do. Remember that Ironborn strength is at sea. He says that 93 ships were captured. Euron sails off with the same number of vessels, from the beginning of the "Iron Suitor" chapter of Dance.

"He had set sail from the Shields with ninety-three, of the hundred that had once made up the Iron Fleet."

Or, I mean, it's just a theory. He could be Benjen, or Moon Boy for all we know.

some of that is rather convincing, (most is just filler to make the list longer though)

There seems to be a LOT of "this character is also that character" gossip going around, so I shall remain skeptical for the time being.

110 (edited by apples 2014-05-17 18:48:32)

Re: the Books vs. the Show

xzeal wrote:

There seems to be a LOT of "this character is also that character"

then how about:
spoilers from all books and sources:

Spoiler

Current High Septon is Howland Reed

In the books, we have met three High Septons so far. The first was killed in a riot (ACOK). The second High Septon was smothered in his sleep (AFFC). And since then, there has been a new High Septon in Kings Landing.

Election

There is little we know of the current High Septon. The person who occupies the position of the High Septon is usually elected. However this High Septon seems to have got the position without any formal election process, just with the support of the sparrows.

    Qyburn’s whisperers claimed that Septon Luceon had been nine votes from elevation when those doors had given way, and the sparrows came pouring into the Great Sept with their leader on their shoulders and their axes in their hands.

Anointing the King

When Aegon the Conqueror first came to Westeros, the High Septon locked himself within the Starry Sept of Oldtown and prayed for seven days and seven nights. When he emerged from prayer, he anointed Aegon as the true King in Oldtown. This tradition of anointing the King by the High Septon was carried on since the days of Aegon the Conqueror. However, the new High Septon has not performed the ritual of blessing Tommen as the King. Much to Cersei’s discomfort. Even though this is merely a ritual, it is an important event in the eyes of the common people.

    “He feeds them, coddles them, blesses them. Yet will not bless the king.” The blessing was an empty ritual, she knew, but rituals and ceremonies had power in the eyes of the ignorant. Aegon the Conqueror himself had dated the start of his realm from the day the High Septon anointed him in Oldtown. (Cersei: AFFC)

When Cersei asks the High Septon on why he failed to bless Tommen as King, he replies that ‘the hour is not yet ripe’.

    [Cersei] “..and yet you have refused to bless King Tommen.”

    [High Septon] “Your Grace is mistaken. We have not refused.”

    [Cersei] “You have not come.”

    “[High Septon]The hour is not yet ripe.” (Cersei: AFFC)

Could the High Septon be waiting for the true King?

It has been hard to figure the motivations of this character, who seems to have appeared out of nowhere. Is he working with Varys or another player?

Who is this High Septon?

When Cersei meets the High Septon, she describes him as a short man, thin as a broom handle (reed thin?), with a grey and brown beard that is closely trimmed and his hair tied in a knot. His face was sharply pointed, and his eyes as ‘brown as mud’.

    “He is cleaning the floor.” The speaker was shorter than the queen by several inches and as thin as a broom handle. “Work is a form of prayer, most pleasing to the Smith.” He stood, scrub brush in hand. “Your Grace. We have been expecting you.”

    The man’s beard was grey and brown and closely trimmed, his hair tied up in a hard knot behind his head. Though his robes were clean, they were frayed and patched as well. He had rolled his sleeves up his elbows as he scrubbed, but below the knees the cloth was soaked and sodden. His face was sharply pointed, with deep-set eyes as brown as mud. His feet are bare, she saw with dismay. They were hideous as well, hard and horny things, thick with callus. “You are His High Holiness?” (Cersei: AFFC)

When Brienne heads to Duskendale from Rosby, she meets a septon who has a similar description to the High Septon. This man asks Brienne and her companions to join the sparrows headed to King’s Landing

    The septon had a lean sharp face and a short beard, grizzled grey and brown. His thin hair was pulled back and knotted behind his head, and his feet were bare and black, gnarled and hard as tree roots. (Brienne: AFFC)

The physical description of the High Septon reminds me of crannogmen. When Bran meets Meera and Jojen in Winterfell he notices how the Reeds were short of stature. Meera is short, slim, and has her brown hair knotted behind her.

    As the newcomers walked the length of the hall, Bran saw that one was indeed a girl [Meera], though he would never have known it by her dress. She wore lambskin breeches soft with long use, and a sleeveless jerkin armored in bronze scales. Though near Robb’s age, she was slim as a boy, with long brown hair knotted behind her head and only the barest suggestion of breasts.

    Her brother was several years younger and bore no weapons. All his garb was green, even to the leather of his boots, and when he came closer Bran saw that his eyes were the color of moss, though his teeth looked as white as anyone else’s. Both Reeds were slight of build, slender as swords and scarcely taller than Bran himself. (Bran: ACOK)

Taena Merryweather tells Cersei that the High Septon was born with filth beneath his fingernails. If he were born in the swampy marshes of the Neck that would not be surprising. Could the High Septon be a crannogman, one we already know?

    [Taena] “My lord husband tells me this new one was born with filth beneath his fingernails.” (Cersei: AFFC)

Motives

When the High Septon meets Cersei, she complains about the filth at the Great Sept of Baelor due to the sparrows. Surprisingly, the High Septon tells Cersei that the stains of Ned Stark’s execution could never be cleansed off the Great Sept of Baelor, even if the dirt and grime brought by the sparrows could be washed away.

    They are common, we agree on that much. “Have you seen what they have done to Blessed Baelor’s statue? They befoul the plaza with their pigs and goats and night soil.”

    “Night soil can be washed away more easily than blood, Your Grace. If the plaza was befouled, it was befouled by the execution that was done here.”

    He dares throw Ned Stark in my face? “We all regret that. Joffrey was young, and not as wise as he might have been. Lord Stark should have been beheaded elsewhere, out of respect for Blessed Baelor… but the man was a traitor, let us not forget.”

    “King Baelor forgave those who conspired against him.” (Cersei: AFFC)

This High Septon seems to have a strange fondness for Ned Stark, even though Ned Stark kept the Old Gods. Maybe cause he is Ned’s old friend, Howland Reed.

It is strange to see that there has been no sign of Howland Reed so far. The last we know is Robb Stark asking his two messengers (Maege Mormont and Galbert Glover) to deliver a message to Howland Reed, and have Howland send him guides to help his army navigate through the bogs. When Glover asks Robb if Howland would fail him, he replies that the crannongman would never fail him.

    Galbart Glover rubbed his mouth. “There are risks. If the crannogmen should fail you…”

    “We will be no worse than before. But they will not fail. My father knew the worth of Howland Reed.” (Catelyn: ASOS)

We also know that the message Robb sent to Howland Reed was highly significant. Whether Howland Reed received this letter is something we don’t know for certain. Another letter of interest is the letter Ned Stark wrote before his execution. We don’t know if that letter was intended for Howland Reed either.

When Bran recalls what he had been taught about crannogmen, he remembers that crannogmen never fight in open battles. They are called a cowardly people because they hide from their foes.

    He tried to recall all he had been taught of the crannogmen, who dwelt amongst the bogs of the Neck and seldom left their wetlands. They were a poor folk, fishers and frog-hunters who lived in houses of thatch and woven reeds on floating islands hidden in the deeps of the swamp. It was said that they were a cowardly people who fought with poisoned weapons and preferred to hide from foes rather than face them in open battle. And yet Howland Reed had been one of Father’s staunchest companions during the war for King Robert’s crown, before Bran was born. (Bran: ACOK)

I don’t think we will see Howland Reed raise an army of crannogmen, and head to King’s Landing. Nor will we see him in open battle. I think Howland Reed plans to avenge the Starks, and also get to the bottom of what is really happening at King’s Landing. As High Septon, whatever punishment he metes out to Cersei, is one she must accept. (Her ‘walk of shame’ punishment eerily reminiscent of the way her Lord father Tywin Lannister had once stripped his father’s mistress naked, and paraded her across Lannisport.)

By abolishing the law that prevents the Faith Militant from taking up arms, Howland (as High Septon) has a bigger army (The Faith Militant) than the Lannisters do at King’s Landing currently. When Jaime left for the Riverlands, he took the greater part of the Lannister host with him.

    “The new High Septon has revived them. He’s sent out a call for worthy knights to pledge their lives and swords to the service of the Seven. The Poor Fellows are to be restored as well.” (Jaime: AFFC)

Howland Reed as High Septon is the most powerful man in King’s Landing right now. And I think he has a few tricks lined up his sleeve while he makes the Lannisters pay their debts, and prepares the way to reveal the true heir of Rhaegar Targaryen.

or why not:

spoilers from all books and sources:

Spoiler

Old Nan is/was Shiera Seastar

The Basics

Shiera Seastar was a young adult at the time of the first Blackfyre Rebellion. She was a half-sister to both Daemon Blackfyre and her lover Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers. Thus, if she were still alive today, she would be very old (older than 120 at least).

Is this impossible? No. Bloodraven is still alive and he is the same age.

"Yes, but he used magic!" - "Shiera Seastar was rumoured to use magic too, and specifically magic to keep herself young."

Old Nan is the oldest person in Winterfell, and, as Bran muses, possibly all of Westeros:

    "She was the oldest person in Winterfell for certain, maybe the oldest person in the Seven Kingdoms. Nan had come to the castle as a wet nurse for a Brandon Stark whose mother had died birthing him."

Old Nan's age is clearly stressed to the extreme here, so with the added proposition that some magic was used (as in Bloodraven's case) then it's plausible to accept that the ages fit.

Motivation

Why would the great bastard Shiera Seastar become a wet-nurse to the Starks in Winterfell?

I propose that around the time that Maekar became king, Shiera became quite unwelcome and possibly un-safe in King's Landing. Maekar clearly distrusted Bloodraven, and even had him imprisoned (for reasons unknown). It is reasonable to assume that this mistrust spread to his paramour and therefore she was perhaps targeted also. This explains why she may have fallen from nobility, but if she appeared at Winterfell around the time of Ned's grandfather, what was she doing in between?

Nothing is known of what became of Shiera in the period between Maekar's reign and today, just like little is known of what happened to Bloodraven after he became Lord Commander. It is interesting, however, that these two lovers are both unaccounted for and seemingly disappeared for nearly a century, it is quite possible that these two, now with nowhere else to go, came back to one another. If Old Nan spent time with Bloodraven after he became the last greenseer, it would explain why her stories seem to hold so much truth about the Others and the last hero, etc. In fact, in ADWD Bran notes how similar one of her stories is to Bloodraven's:

    All,” Lord Brynden said. “It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin.” Old Nan had told him the same story once, Bran remembered, but when he asked Robb if it was true, his brother laughed and asked him if he believed in grumkins too.

Back to facts, what we do know is that Old Nan came to Winterfell to become a wetnurse for "a Brandon Stark". Presuming this is actually Shiera, why would she do this? I believe that she and Bloodraven (BR) had knowledge that a Brandon Stark would be born one day with the power of the last Greenseer.

My greatest evidence for this is based on this quote (ADWD) from BR, which implies he has been watching Winterfell for some time waiting for Bran to be born:

    “I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late.”

This certainly implies that BR waited for Bran to be born, but the fact that he also watched Ned's birth as well as the last sentence imply that Bloodraven didn't know when Bran would be born. What if BR's only information was that there would be a Brandon Stark born with these powers? "now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark".

Hence, this is why when Lord Rickard's brother (or possibly uncle), Brandon, was born I believe BR sent Shiera to become his wetnurse, hoping that this was the Brandon he had waited for. He never suspected that the true Brandon would come at 'such a late hour' as 3 (or 4) generations later!

Conclusion

So, Shiera was left to wait for the true Brandon to be born, and became Old Nan over the decades. Meanwhile, she developed a resentment for Bloodraven having abandoned her after promising she would only be gone for a few years, which is why when Bran first tells her about his dreams of the three-eyed crow she responds:

    "Crows are all liars."

Shiera Seastar and Bloodraven disappeared into the cave of the children almost 100 years ago, and waited for a "Brandon Stark" to be born, eventually sending Shiera out to wetnurse for Lord Rickard's brother Brandon, only to find that the Bran they were waiting for was still decades from being born.

Bonus: Old Nan might have Dark Sister stashed in the crypts of Winterfell.

oh and ofc:

spoiler AFFC:

Spoiler

"Jaqen H'ghar" == Alchemist ==  Pate (now) in the Citadel

more?

spoilers all

Spoiler

Sandor is the Gravedigger

Near the end of ASOS, Sandor Clegane was grievously injured during a drunken skirmish with Gregor's men. Arya denied his request for "mercy" (the gift?) and instead left him to die where he had fallen.

In AFFC there is a chapter where Brienne travels to the Quiet Isle with (tri)Pod and Ser Hyle. There, they meet an Elder Brother of the order of silent monks who claims to have found the Hound during his travels. Supposedly he died after the priest helped him through his final moments. Afterwards he buried him and placed his Hound Helm on top of his grave. In that chapter, however, we can find many clues and indications that point to Sandor being alive and that he is actually the gravedigger on the Quit Isle. In order to maintain a clear and orderly analysis, these clues will be separated into two categories, ‘the Elder Brother’ and ‘the gravedigger’

THE ELDER BROTHER:

1) The first indication can be seen in the way Elder Brother speaks about The Hounds demise. He never says “Sandor is dead”. For instance:

    “The Hound is dead, Sandor is at rest.”
    “The man you hunt is dead."
    "The Hound died there, in my arms."

His words appear to be far more delicately chosen. All these sentences look like confirmation of Sandor's death, but when taken along with further observations, it is not quite so clear.

2) The second clue ties in to the first one and can be found in the following passage between the Elder Brother and Brienne:

    "I never saw the blow that felled me. Before I could turn something slammed into my head and knocked me back into the river, where by rights I should have drowned. Instead I woke here, upon the Quiet Isle. The Elder Brother told me I had washed up on the tide, naked as my name day. We are all born naked, so I suppose it was only fitting that I come into my second life the same way."

The last part of the passage suggests that the idea of death means something different to the Elder Brother than it does to Brienne, or anyone else. When he speaks of his own death, of course he does not mean it in a literal sense, but a figurative one. He even uses the phrase, "second life," in contrast with the death of his first. This makes people inclined to believe that his talk regarding “The Hounds" death may also be figurative. The Hound might be dead, but Sandor Clegane could certainly still be alive.

3) The Elder Brother also knows too much about Sandor and his personal issues for someone who supposedly just aided him in a quick death bed. The fact that the priest seems to have a thorough understanding of Cleganes true nature is strange and is also another indication that he is probably not telling Brienne what really happened when he found him.

4) Stranger, Sandor's horse is in the stables on the Quite Isle. The Elder Brother claims to have taken him after burying The Hound. Stranger is known to be vicious and attacks anyone that isn’t Sandor. Even the Brothers of the Quite Isle admitted as much themselves, as seen in the following passage:

    “That was his warhorse, Stranger. A blasphemous name. We prefer to call him Driftwood. Handsome he may be, but Driftwood was surely whelped in hell. When we sought to harness him to a plow he kicked Brother Rawney and broke his shinbone in two places. We had hoped gelding might improve the beast’s ill temper, but... Brother Gillam, will you show them?” Brother Gillam lowered his cowl. Underneath he had a mop of blond hair, a tonsured scalp, and a bloodstained bandage where he should have had an ear. Podrick gasped. “The horse bit off your ear?” Gillam nodded, and covered his head again.

Knowing this begs the question: “How did the Elder Brother get Stranger to the Quite Isle without Sandor?” Gurm explicitly described how difficult it is to reach the Quite Isle, as stated in the following passage:

    “The path of faith, we call it. Only the faithful may cross safely. The wicked are swallowed by the quicksands, or drowned when the tide comes rushing in. None of you are wicked, I hope? Even so, I would be careful where I set my feet. Walk only where I walk, and you shall reach the other side.” The path of faith was a crooked one, Brienne could not help but note. Septon Meribald did not make directly for the island. As he walked he paused from time to time, to probe ahead with his quarterstaff.

Brienne and her companions had to follow a very specific path to get there unharmed. This makes it nearly impossible to believe that the priest was able to take Stranger calmly with him on such a dangerous trip, where a single false step means death.

5) There is one last indication to be found in a quote relating to the Elder Brother:

    The Seven have blessed our Elder Brother with healing hands. He has restored many a man to health that even the maesters could not cure, and many a woman too.

This quote tells us that the Elder Brother is an exceptionally gifted healer, making it very possible that he healed Sandor from his critical condition.

THE GRAVEDIGGER:

At one point, Brienne and the Elder Brother have a brief exchange regarding a gravedigger on the Isle.

    They passed a lichyard where a brother bigger than Brienne was struggling to dig a grave. From the way he moved, it was plain to see that he was lame. As he flung a spadeful of the stony soil over one shoulder, some chanced to spatter against their feet. “Be more watchful there,” chided Brother Narbert. The gravedigger lowered his head. When Dog went to sniff him he dropped his spade and scratched his ear. “A novice,” explained Narbert.

1) Brienne is known to be very big, even though, she specifically notes that the grave digger is bigger than her. Throughout her entire storyline, Brienne has usually been described as larger than most males and females (she is a descendant of Ser Duncan the Tall). The Hound happens to be one of the people of whom we know, for a fact, to be bigger than Brienne.

2) He also walks with a limp, which would make sense since one of Sandor's wounds was in his leg, and that the leg wound was the one that, according to Arya, smelled peculiar, as if infected.

3) The gravedigger pats the dog that came with Brienne and the animal instantly takes a liking to the big man. It is known that Sandor loves dogs.

4) Additionally, the gravedigger is a novice, suggesting that he is new to the Isle. It is stated earlier in the chapter that the brothers and novices go cowled, with scarves wrapped around their faces. Clegane's distinctive burned face would be invisible to Brienne.

Almost confirmed:
Spoilers all:

Spoiler

Ser Robert Strong is the reanimated corpse of Ser Gregor Clegane.

The circumstances of Ser Gregor's death, Ser Robert's introduction by Qyburn and Ser Robert's physical characteristics strongly suggests this is true.

*Qyburn lost his Maester's chain for conducting unethical experiments on humans.
*It is mentioned at Harrenhal by Gendry that Qyburn is rumored to have knowledge of black magic and necromancy.
*It is never said what happens to Gregor's body, except that his head is sent to Doran Martell.
*Qyburn says he is making an "undefeatable champion" for Cersei Lannister. Though none of his work is shown or described in detail, it's known he commissions a very large suit of armor for an unknown purpose.
*Qyburn convinces Cersei to allow him to experiment on the dying Ser Gregor Clegane, among other prisoners of the Red Keep.
*Mace Tyrell and Randyll Tarly have doubts about Ser Robert Strong's identity. Meryn Trant claims to never see him eat or drink and Boros Blount says he's never seen him use a privy.
*Strong is said to never speak. Qyburn claims that Ser Robert made a vow of silence, which sounds like a cover story.
*While the head of Ser Gregor is supposed to have been sent to Dorne, and Doran Martell remarks that the skull he receives is certainly large enough to have belonged to Ser Gregor, Ser Robert apparently never removes his helm, so there is no conclusive proof that he actually has a head.
*Ser Gregor championed for Cersei Lannister before Ser Robert. She may well trust in Ser Robert Strong simply because he is physically impressive, but it is remarkable that she stakes her life on someone that she barely knows.

Bran's Greendream

While Bran is in a coma from his fall in A Game of Thrones, he has a dream while flying with the three-eyed crow (== Bloodraven == Brynden Rivers (see above)):
"There were shadows all around them. One Shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them loomed a Giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."

Evidence this relates to Robert Strong

*The first shadow is likely Sandor Clegane as he wears a hound-shaped helm.
*The second shadow is likely Prince Oberyn Martell as he wears armor of bronze discs. Also the sun is the sigil of House Martell.
*The second shadow could also be Ser Jaime Lannister or Tywin Lannister since both wear golden armor.
*The Stone giant is likely Ser Gregor Clegane as he is referred to as "The Mountain" (which are of stone) and his helm is adorned with a stone fist.
*The poison Prince Oberyn uses on Ser Gregor is noted by Pycelle and Qyburn to have turned Gregor's blood black.
*The stone giant is headless and Ser Robert Strong is possibly headless as well.

Oh, almost forgot the best one:
Spoilers all:

Spoiler

Rhaenys kitten is the black cat of Kings Landing.

So Rhaenys Targaryen (Rhaegar and Elia’s daughter) had a little black kitten named Balerion. Poor Rhaenys was brutally murdered, and since her kitten was just, well, a kitten, many never gave its existence - his existence - a second thought.

Years later, in AGOT:
* Arya is chasing a nasty old black cat around the Red Keep. One of the Gold Cloaks tells her:

“‘That’s the real king of this castle right there … Older than sin and twice as mean. One time, the king was feasting the queen’s father, and that black bastard hopped up on the table and snatched a roast quail right out of Lord Tywin’s fingers. Robert laughed so hard he like to burst. You stay away from that one, child.’”

* Balerion the Cat pesters Tommen and his kittens. In fact, at one point Tommen mentions to Cersei and Ser Kevan that the “bad cat” was outside his window the night before. Thankfully Ser Pounce was present to hiss and chase Balerion away, but the question remains.. why was Balerion outside Tommen’s window in the black of night?

*Gurms reply when asked if the black tomcat caught by Arya was Rhaenys' kitten Balerion: "Could be."

* Previously established: Using the very powerful magic of kings blood, (the deaths of Drogo, Viserys and Rhaego), Dany hatched three dragons.

*Tommen become king after Rhaenys grandfather Aerys II Targaryen, Robert Baratheon, and Joffrey Baratheon die. Three kings. Then Tommen recieve three kittens from Margaery in a (successful) attempt to win his heart. Balerion (the cat), named after Balerion (the dragon) could be the father of those three kittens, three heads of the dragon, the Pounce that was promised!

in conclusion, some random thoughts pertaining to this theme:
spoilers all:

Spoiler

Septa Lemore.
Many people believe she is Ashara Dayne, but personally I don't.  I think Tyrion, despite being as he is, would have remarked on her eye colour. (Ashara had purple eyes). Some people say Eddard had a crush on her and that she is Jons mother, but I am still 100% convinced Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. At this point in the story though, it would be an interesting reveal, because it wouldn't matter to the people in power. Who would believe him? Even if Ned hid Rhaegars harp in Lyannas grave, is that really proof? Do they need proof? By all rules, Stannis is the rightful king, but nobody seem to care about that. It would matter if his song was the one of ice and fire though, as Rhaegar claimed.

also, one of mances spearwives could be mors umbers daughter.

"It is known":
*"arya" is jayne poole
*uncat is LSH
*young griff is aegon and griff is jon c. (young griff could also (as a double-secret) be a blackfyre or illyrios son.) To ponder: (ADWD Daenerys I:  "If he had lived, I might have married him. Aegon would have been closer to my age than Viserys.")

another issue with characters identities
[spoilers all]

Spoiler

While Arya is travelling with Gendry and the Brotherhood without Banners, they stay at the Peach, a brothel in the Stoney Sept.

    “I bet this is a brothel,” she whispered to Gendry. “You don’t even know what a brothel is.” “I do so,” she insisted. “It’s like an inn, with girls.”

There they meet Bella, a whore. She was named after, and likely conceived during, the Battle of the Bells. Robert was wounded and in hiding before this battle, and as Robert was one to do, he ate and drank and slept with women. It is heavily hinted that Bella is one of his bastards.

    One of the girls sat down on the bench beside him. “Who’s a highborn lady? The little skinny one?” She looked at Arya and laughed. “I’m a king’s daughter myself.” Arya knew she was being mocked. “You are not.”
    “Well, I might be.” When the girl shrugged, her gown slipped off one shoulder. “They say King Robert fucked my mother when he hid here, back before the battle. Not that he didn’t have all the other girls too, but Leslyn says he liked my ma the best.”
    The girl did have hair like the old king’s, Arya thought; a great thick mop of it, as black as coal. That doesn’t mean anything, though. Gendry has the same kind of hair too. Lots of people have black hair.

The reader can chuckle and see the irony in Arya using Gendry to dismiss the chance that Bella is Robert’s bastard. I think it's pretty clear from this evidence Bella is one of Robert's bastards. Bella quickly takes interest in Gendry.

    “I’m named Bella,” the girl told Gendry. “For the battle. I bet I could ring your bell, too. You want to?”
    “No,” he said gruffly.
    “I bet you do.” She ran a hand along his arm. “I don’t cost nothing to friends of Thoros and the lightning lord.”

Gendry, who seems very shy around women, gets angry and rebukes her advances, and Bella is next seen sitting on Jack-Be-Lucky’s lap. However, later on, after Gendry calls Arya his sister, we get this exchange:

    “Why did you say that?” Arya hopped to her feet. “You’re not my brother.”
    “That’s right,” he said angrily. “I’m too bloody lowborn to be kin to m’lady high.”
    Arya was taken aback by the fury in his voice. “That’s not the way I meant it.”
    “Yes it is.” He sat down on the bench, cradling a cup of wine between his hands. “Go away. I want to drink this wine in peace. Then maybe I’ll go find that black-haired girl and ring her bell for her.”
    “But…”
    “I said, go away. M’lady.”

Gendry, seems to be drunk, and seemingly upset at Arya. Perhaps upset he could never be with a highborn lady so he does the next best thing and sleeps with the bastard of the King? This could give him the courage/fire needed to make a move on Bella. Also, as she mentioned, she would be free for friends of Thoros and Beric so price wouldn't be a factor. When Arya falls asleep, Gendry is not in the room. He is there when she awakens in the morning. They awaken to find that the Hound has been captured so we don’t hear anything else about the night, but we do get this line from Arya in her next chapter:

    Arya wished she had another crabapple to bounce off his face. “My father had honor,” she said angrily. “And we weren’t talking to you anyway.Why don’t you go back to Stoney Sept and ring that girl’s stupid bells?”

111 (edited by apples 2014-05-18 13:49:51)

Re: the Books vs. the Show

BlackBox wrote:

Shows tend to start exactly synced with the script/book and later fork in different directions.

Yes. And we recently had an important scene in the show that was not in the books.
(spoilers all)

Spoiler

The revelation that the others are made, not born.
"Craster's sons. The white cold is rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor bones don't lie. They'll be here soon, the sons."
In the early editions of A Game of Thrones, the publishers note include references to "The Neverborn", which is apparently what Gurm called the Others back then. But what does it mean? Is it important? My first thought went to the Nights King, who married an Other and took up residence in the Nightfort, he was the 13th lord commander and ruled for 13 years before a Stark and the then King beyond the wall, Joramun (as in Joramuns horn) joined forces to kill him. Old Nan claim that the Nights King was a Stark.
But, there is nothing to actually indicate that this is him. Unless, consider that he was shown with 12 other Others, and that, according to Old Nan, The Last Hero "set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog and a dozen companions." Who knows. If the Last Hero is the 13th lord commander, he probably ended the war by marrying an Other, making a pact. The Starks always believed in the Old Gods, and they have a special connection with the north. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Brandon the builder made the wall, etc. If there is a pact, then it may be broken, or at least damaged by now. Winter is coming. The year Eddards father and brother were killed by the Mad King is called the Year of the false spring. They were heading towards summer, but something happened. R+L=J ties into this if Rhaegar tried to save the pact by joining the fire of Targaryens with the ice of Starks ("his is the song of ice and fire").
But about the Others. Before they existed, or were known to exist at least, The Children had a peace treaty with the first men. The Children taught the men many things, like greenseeing, warging and weirwood.net, and this is when the Others first appeared, they came from the Long Night, unheard of. Maybe the men could not handle these powers, resulting in the imbalance in the world. The Faceless men and the old masters of Valyria might be on opposing sides in this imbalance, while the Maesters try to keep the balance. Aemon said: "It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?" Stannis sword is fake, glamoured using the ruby, like the one Melisandre wear around her neck to hide her true form and not freeze in the cold.
The prince that was promised is right there though: Jon.
In the house of the Undying Dany see a blue rose growing from the wall. The blue rose is always a reference to Lyanna. When Melisandere tries to see Azor Ahai, all she can see is Snow. She is sincere, but biased against the truth.
Therefore I believe that the scene in which we saw the Others make new Others, is a way to remind us that the Others are not Wights, and that they are not the enemy. The men broke the pact, the Others are defending themselves, and Jon will make a new pact!

But wait, who will end up sitting on the Iron Throne? It doesn't matter. Probably Littlefinger "ruling over ashes", Stannis could become King Beyond the Wall, which, if the wall is destroyed, would mean the north in general I suppose. And he would be the best king ever. Stannis the Mannis Baratheon. What a guy! Oh boy.

112 (edited by apples 2014-05-19 19:50:46)

Re: the Books vs. the Show

So, about a certain kiss...
No, not this one.
The one that never happened.
I'm not putting this in spoiler tags because it's something that already didn't happen a long time ago.
Back when Stannis Baratheon, (Righful King of the Andals and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm etc) tried to take Kings Landing, during the Battle of the Blackwater, we saw Sandor hide in Sansas room, waiting, wanting to save her. She arrives, a song is sung, some death threats are spoken, and then he's on his way.
That's the way it happened. Both in the show (iirc), and in the books.
So, and this is my question, why do Sansa on several occasions think back and remember how they kissed?
It's a clear memory, and detailed. Isn't that strange? We know it didn't happen, and we know she remember it.

Edit: Update:
After going through a lot of Gurm interviews and transcripts I finally found something:
spoilers (not really, but not from official source so..)

Spoiler

On June 26, 2001:
"(GRRM is asked about Sansa misremembering the name of Joffrey's sword.)

The Lion's Paw / Lion's Tooth business, on the other hand, is intentional. A small touch of the unreliable narrator. I was trying to establish that the memories of my viewpoint characters are not infallible. Sansa is simply remembering it wrong. A very minor thing (you are the only one to catch it to date), but it was meant to set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory. You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom... but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it's a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on."

Re: the Books vs. the Show

xzeal wrote:

"this character is also that character"

This was fun, let's do another one:
Spoilers ADWD:

Spoiler

Jorah Mormont is Azor Ahai reborn.

Before the evidence, let's remember the legend of Azor Ahai: about eight thousand years ago, during the Long Night, AA wanted to fight the Others. He needed a sword, the best sword ever! So he made one and when he tempered it in water it broke and he was like "oh snap". So for a long time he worked on a better one, and he tempered it by plunging it into a lion! And it broke. But the third time, he had been working even harder on this one, and when it was almost done he was like "hey wife? my love? could you come here for a moment? I... want to show you something..." and he stabbed her to death and her soul mixed with the sword and thus Lightbringer was made, the legendary sword used to defeat the Others.

Let's also remember the prophesy:
"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

Melisandre made a sword like this and gave to Stannis, but neither of them really believe it is the real Lightbringer I suppose.

And then we have: "When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

Ok, so, Jorah Mormont. The bear without his maiden fair. Jorah is defined by his love for Dany, and her reluctance to return it. But let's remember a promise she made, a long time ago:

"Ser Jorah Mormont,” she said, “first and greatest of my knights, I have no bride gift to give you, but I swear to you, one day you shall have from my hands a longsword like none the world has ever seen, dragon-forged and made of Valyrian steel."

Now, Dany doesn't have such a sword, and where would she get one now? She's got nothing at all, wandering around somewhere in the middle of nowhere, drinking bad water... I bet she's done trying to rule Meereen, she'd like the house with the red door, and Daario by her side, let Aegon rule the seven kingdoms. Interesting to note is that she's pretty close to a place called the Smoking Sea, just outside old (and doomed) Valyria. People don't go there anymore unless they are wild and crazy. Daario is wild and crazy. Especially if he's actually Euron in the end. He and Jorah and Tyrion will find her, and she'll be like "whose boat is this?" and he'll say "it's a ship, baby", "whose ship is it?", "Pyat Prees", "who's Pyat Pree?", "Pyat Pree's dead, baby. Pyat Pree's dead."

Now, about that sword. Remember how Tywin Lannister made Eddards sword Ice into two swords? That's because the Lannisters didn't have their own valyrian steel family sword for ages, they've been trying to buy one but nobody's really selling them. They did have one once though, called Brightroar, but King of the Rock Tommen II lost it. He lost it outside Valyria as he tried to sail there and was never seen again! The sword is there, in the Smoking Sea. Remember AA:  Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt....
The Lannisters valyrian sword has been tempered in water, next Jorah will kill a lion (Tyrion), and lastly, kill the woman he truly loves, Daenerys, her soul mixing with the sword. a longsword like none the world has ever seen, dragon-forged

Why kill Dany? Well, she's more and more turning into Mad Queen Targaryen, she must be stopped before becoming like her father. She has already in the show began to show no mercy, executing people to the left and right etc, it's only a matter of time.

Bonus: Jeor Mormont, the old Lord Commander Jon Served under, always wished Jorah would take the black. Jon will probably be reborn as leader of the Others, and Jorah will take the black and become the 1000th Lord Commander, destined to drive back the darkness!

It fits.

Re: the Books vs. the Show

http://s3.amazonaws.com/images.hitfix.com/assets/2058/keanu1_.gif

Haha, I love this speculation stuff. It's fun how things can be tied together from a few threads and quotes from the books. Will be hilarious is some of them turn out true.

Re: the Books vs. the Show

tfurrows wrote:

Will be hilarious is some of them turn out true.

big_smile
I doubt it.. except for one thing:

Spoiler

Rhaegar+Lyanna=Jon
It must be, and if it turns out it isnt, then GRRM is wrong smile
Also, i believe in snarks and grumkins being pets of the others, ice spiders and stuff.

Re: the Books vs. the Show

Where is the show up to in the books? and can I just read from the point that we are up to, or do I have to start the book from the first one if I have seen all the shows?

PLEASE NO SPOILERS (I havent read through this thread for fear of spoilers)

Brothers! What we do in life...Echoes in Eternity!


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Re: the Books vs. the Show

The end of book three, Storm of Swords.

http://card.psnprofiles.com/1/OrlandoNEP.png

Re: the Books vs. the Show

Orlando wrote:

The end of book three, Storm of Swords.

So can I just start from book 4 or do I need to read all the others - considering that I have seen all the episodes.

Brothers! What we do in life...Echoes in Eternity!


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Re: the Books vs. the Show

We can tell more clearly after the last two episodes in this season. right now all the things what happened in book three properly seems to happen in this season (considering vague descriptions of the remaining two episodes).  But they still may leave some things to the beginning of the next season..

120

Re: the Books vs. the Show

nightcrow wrote:

or do I have to start the book from the first one

You kinda should start from book one as there are differences and lots of extra information.

121 (edited by tfurrows 2014-06-12 10:03:37)

Re: the Books vs. the Show

The show writers are certainly more bloodthirsty than Martin, killing off several characters that are still alive and well in the books. I was especially sad to see

Spoiler

Jon's friends Pyp and Grenn go.

But oh well, that's probably what comes when you can only include a fraction of the hundreds of book characters in a show. When it comes time to kill a few side characters, you don't have as many to choose from that would elicit any emotional response from the viewers.

edit. Doh! Fixed for spoiler! Now hopefully the post after this will get fixed too.

Re: the Books vs. the Show

tfurrows wrote:

The show writers are certainly more bloodthirsty than Martin, killing off several characters that are still alive and well in the books. I was especially sad to see Jon's friends Pyp and Grenn go. But oh well, that's probably what comes when you can only include a fraction of the hundreds of book characters in a show. When it comes time to kill a few side characters, you don't have as many to choose from that would elicit any emotional response from the viewers.

Spoiler tag!!!!!!!

Brothers! What we do in life...Echoes in Eternity!


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Re: the Books vs. the Show

nightcrow wrote:
Orlando wrote:

The end of book three, Storm of Swords.

So can I just start from book 4 or do I need to read all the others - considering that I have seen all the episodes.

i think that you may start reading from the book 4. All the mayor things seems to be in from the books, but right now i remember one thing (what happens next on the wall), that got pushed to the next season.

Re: the Books vs. the Show

kaibren wrote:
nightcrow wrote:
Orlando wrote:

The end of book three, Storm of Swords.

So can I just start from book 4 or do I need to read all the others - considering that I have seen all the episodes.

i think that you may start reading from the book 4. All the mayor things seems to be in from the books, but right now i remember one thing (what happens next on the wall), that got pushed to the next season.

Thank you!! But if there is something 'that happens next on the wall' - then should I read book 3 as well? Or is starting from book 4 sufficient?

Brothers! What we do in life...Echoes in Eternity!


http://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=9a35ebe93d371275706bdebcafefaa47

125 (edited by kaibren 2014-06-17 06:51:34)

Re: the Books vs. the Show

nightcrow wrote:
kaibren wrote:
nightcrow wrote:
Orlando wrote:

The end of book three, Storm of Swords.

So can I just start from book 4 or do I need to read all the others - considering that I have seen all the episodes.

i think that you may start reading from the book 4. All the mayor things seems to be in from the books, but right now i remember one thing (what happens next on the wall), that got pushed to the next season.

Thank you!! But if there is something 'that happens next on the wall' - then should I read book 3 as well? Or is starting from book 4 sufficient?

well.. you can always just read this: third book summary in wikipedia
Then start with the fourth book. It should fill in all the holes. and there isn't much holes to begin with.. You even know some things what most readers will only learn in the fifth book. (Mostly Reek (rhymes with leek) part)