Topic: Zeitgeist: The Movie discussion (will most likely contain spoilors)

[there's a post about this documentary on the front page that leads here]

Your thoughts on the movie?

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Re: Zeitgeist: The Movie discussion (will most likely contain spoilors)

So, the movie. I have a couple of big gripes. The first part was a really well done documentary movie, it was about a subject I find fascinating and the facts were put forth in an undeniable fashion. The second part was fine. There were parts where opinions and assumptions were stated as facts, but it's nothing too bad in the post-Moore era. The third part got plain funny pretty fast. I could discuss this in detail, but i'd rather wait for some more people to watch the movie.

Probably my biggest gripe with the movie is that the first part is not tied to any of the other parts in any way, sort or fashion. I understand why it is there from a dramaturgical point of view, the trouble is that dramaturgy has no place in a documentary. Maybe I'm old school, maybe I'm old fashioned, but there are certain conceptions about documentary movies that makes this one, as well as Michael Moor's flicks, not a documentary. I think we're at the point where we need to define exactly what makes a movie a documentary and just name these sorts in a different way.

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Re: Zeitgeist: The Movie discussion (will most likely contain spoilors)

I was about to suggest that a good documentary shouldn't be put to effect in evoking an emotional response in the viewer...but then I remembered how great March of the Penguins was, and how emotionally captivating it was....especially compared to something like 'Born into Brothels' which you might expect to be more heart-wrenching. Born into Brothels was great, mind-you, but not the same quality as March of the Penguins...for the mere fact that it lacked the emotionality.

Maybe it's got more to do with trasparency...with the agenda of the filmmakers...
You can show emotionally charging stuff, as long as you're being honest about it.
Guys like Moore edit sequences out of context, and in an effort to infer something which is altogether inaccurate...while the March of the Penguins stuff is emotional for the mere fact of the impressiveness of what is being conveyed. It's not used to get people on the 'Anti-Global Warming' bandwagon.
Maybe it's an issue of being Persuasive/Manipulative vs. being genuinely compelling.

Re: Zeitgeist: The Movie discussion (will most likely contain spoilors)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJaMipNkipo one of my favorite docus btw smile

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Re: Zeitgeist: The Movie discussion (will most likely contain spoilors)

i fell asleep watching it ....

Re: Zeitgeist: The Movie discussion (will most likely contain spoilors)

While I agree that some of the stuff is propaganda and factless conspiracy theories, I do believe the movie raises some extremely important questions - for example the "Federal" Reserve, and how it's being owned by private banks.

For more info - see this recent post:

http://elainemeinelsupkis.typepad.com/m … 08-el.html

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Re: Zeitgeist: The Movie discussion (will most likely contain spoilors)

The US gov't is Trillion of dollars in debt. The whole country is more or less owned by private banks. If you look exclusively at how that affects the Federal reserve, and not at how it affects everything, then it probably seems like an important question that might indicate some sort of conspiracy. In the big picture though, it's the same reality affecting everyone. People, especially in North America, live waaay beyond their means.

And besides that, why would the government be its own bank? that would be a major conflict of interest, setting the stage for some real corruption.
We've always known that politicians and bankers were crooks...so why allow either of them that kind of power?
Can you imagine what would happen to inflation if money was actually controlled by politicians? Right before every election the economy would get an artifcial boost, only to eventually collapse on itself...

Re: Zeitgeist: The Movie discussion (will most likely contain spoilors)

I have to see, that while this movie is very informative, it is guilty of some of the crimes that it blames on the world. As said, a lot of it is in fact factual, but a lot of it isn't. It uses the same type of fear mechanism the the government uses.

I live in Israel, and like all (or most) Israeli citizens served in the army, and been in so called "enemy territory". I though i hated palistiniens before i joined the army, but i never even saw one. And when I did, my hatred turned to pity, not only for them, but for me as well. I was led to believe that all of them were evil and hateful by design, and i;m sure that they were led to believe the same conclusion about me, but the fact is that every person on this planet wants the exact same thing, and that is the freedom to live their life without fear of anything. By artificially installing this fear into all of us, a third unknown party (reffered as the elite in the movie) benefits.

My first thought after viewing this movie was "Oh shit, so what the fuck should I do now? Go out and kill the Rockefeller family?"
But I think the answer is to just be, and to not take everything for granted. Question everything until you are satisfied with the answer.
That is the lesson that i will definitely take from this movie, which i will undoubtedly recommend to my friends.

Re: Zeitgeist: The Movie discussion (will most likely contain spoilors)

Robcore wrote:

The US gov't is Trillion of dollars in debt. The whole country is more or less owned by private banks. If you look exclusively at how that affects the Federal reserve, and not at how it affects everything, then it probably seems like an important question that might indicate some sort of conspiracy. In the big picture though, it's the same reality affecting everyone. People, especially in North America, live waaay beyond their means.

And besides that, why would the government be its own bank? that would be a major conflict of interest, setting the stage for some real corruption.
We've always known that politicians and bankers were crooks...so why allow either of them that kind of power?
Can you imagine what would happen to inflation if money was actually controlled by politicians? Right before every election the economy would get an artifcial boost, only to eventually collapse on itself...

Actually - I can [imagine].

It's how it is in *every* other normal country out there.

The money printing / central banking stuff is being held by the government, and not private banks.

That's really the only way I can argue with your "what will happen if you give that control to politicians". (and by "only way" I mean - the shortest possible way to make a point. There are a lot of things I can say about why this shouldn't be in private hands, but I think it should be fairly obvious).

I may be mistaken here, as my knowledge in international banking systems / politics is not that great, so please correct me if there are more countries out there who entrusted their central banking functions to private entities.

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Re: Zeitgeist: The Movie discussion (will most likely contain spoilors)

well, like the term 'Federal Reserve' is misleading, so is the term 'The Royal Canadian Mint'. All money managing entities have their own boards of directors and such...advisory comittees, accountants, investors, etc. And each of those people acts based on their personal ideologies. Even if they supposedly fall under the jurisdiction of 'a' federal government, with the exception of the various dictatorships in the world, they still aren't 'run' by the federal government.
Even though in title they may belong to the government, in essence, they are private banks run by their investors.

Even in the US, though, it is not as though the private bank has amassed any real power that can't be vetoed by the feds...the government is the law...and every individual and institution within the country's borders is consented to abide by the law. It simply is not necessary that the federal reserve be run by the government.
It's not like it isn't in the private bank's best interest to work the same way as it would if it were run by the government - they both benefit most by keeping the economy strong.

Privatization actually, is the mandate of more or less the majority of right wing politicians...it's all about capitalism.
...in fact, all mainstream parties in North America are basically liberal (at least in the Canadian sense of the word - in the US liberal tends to mean radical, but here it is a relatively moderate/middle of the road ideology)...believing that society is a collection of individuals, each free to pursue their own individual goals (this is the essence of capitalism and why it is such a successful profit generating system).
All the mainstream parties also believe that the best context for such a pursuit is the FREE MARKET.
They also believe that the government should regulate, but not participate in, the free market, and that the pursuit of individual self interest will produce the greatest good for the greatest number (Utilitarianism).
They also believe in the legitimacy of the profit motive.

Now, some parties agree with these principles to greater or lesser degrees, for instance, in Canada, medical care isn't part of the free market...however, were it not for the strength of the free market combined with taxation, it would not be possible to redistribute wealth in such a way that we could maintain such a high standard of health care universally.

In any case, the idea behind most of government is that, if government doesn't need to be involved in order for things to run smoothly, then why have government involved?
If you think about it, government employees do not actually produce any assets for the country...they don't build anything, feed anyone, cure anyone, etc. Which means that, probably less than 10% of the people are actually paying (in taxes) for the majority of the people to live.
A Senator for example, produces nothing, and pays taxes which serve to keep his bank account full. A construction worker on the other hand, does something which helps to sustain the country, and his tax dollars also go to that Senator.
What that means, is that government is a big toilet to flush your money down.

It serves some purpose for sure, but where private ownership is possible, it is really better for everyone, since more of their tax dollars can go into services and projects which benefit the people, and that taxes can afford to be reduced.
All of these effects serve to increase the profitability of capitalism, aaaand, the stronger the economy becomes, the easier it is to provide a social safety net (as the social welfare system has been coined in Canada at least), which is in place to serve those who fall subject to the risks of capitalistic venture so that they can get back on their feet and begin to be productive members of society again.

Re: Zeitgeist: The Movie discussion (will most likely contain spoilors)

Damn, you write a lot...

Re: Zeitgeist: The Movie discussion (will most likely contain spoilors)

...it's all about providing a context for what's being said...

Re: Zeitgeist: The Movie discussion (will most likely contain spoilors)

Very good... Althoug i've seen it before. Still this is the truth... But he forgott a few things, the USG are also responsible for the Londonbombings and Madrid bombing...

Love Europe

Re: Zeitgeist: The Movie discussion (will most likely contain spoilors)

Robcore - I'd love to hear your thoughts on the 2nd movie:)

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Re: Zeitgeist: The Movie discussion (will most likely contain spoilors)

I think the Zeitgeist movies are pretty interesting. I mean it's no secret that money rules the world. But wheter or not these people are trying to take over the world is going to be interesting to see.

Re: Zeitgeist: The Movie discussion (will most likely contain spoilors)

Conspiracy theories are for nutjobs.
Boycott the military and banks? yeeeeah. no.

Re: Zeitgeist: The Movie discussion (will most likely contain spoilors)

yeah, it's absolutely ridiculous and too far gone to be reconciled with anything resembling reality.

I mean, basically, he suffers from the same condition that proponents of libertarianism, communism, socialism, etc. are suffering from: ignorance concerning human nature.
He's just promoting his own ideology of individual freedom (ignorant of the qualities of human nature which give rise to the need for collective freedoms being more important than individual ones - like belief in the legitimacy of the profit motive, capitalism, and laws that prevent people not aligned with the freedoms of anybody but themselves from causing harm to others.).
Basically, what he's advocating for, is for his ideology to be backed by the same imaginary force/power that he imagines to be operating behind closed doors on other agendas.

The sheer fact that I like going to work, being occasionally lost, and getting to experience times when my bank account is overflowing, and when it is completely empty, has me fundamentally opposed to his vision of a utopian society, because that vision is not at all in alignment with my vision of utopia.

He wants a revolution...not a steady easing into a state of more enlightened existence for humanity.
"Down with structure! Down with opportunity for people who can use it better than me! Down with everything that frustrates me!"
Grow up, mister. lol.

And I'm sure he's got a healthy bank account as well.

Re: Zeitgeist: The Movie discussion (will most likely contain spoilors)

Hatemonger's heaven... Definitely not my idea of zeitgeist.