26

Re: The Wheel of Time

xxFelixDCatxx wrote:

Having read the books, huge disappointment to me. I'd write out all the changes so far, but there are honestly too many. Episode 4 entirely never occurred in the books. The books were and are one of my top all time fantasy series, and I was really looking forward to seeing this when I heard about it. Watching it now is like a punch to the gut.

I honestly hope they stop making it before they cock up any more of Jordan's work.


I am so glad I did not read the books. This show is so much nicer without them.

27

Re: The Wheel of Time

inkblot wrote:
xxFelixDCatxx wrote:

Having read the books, huge disappointment to me. I'd write out all the changes so far, but there are honestly too many. Episode 4 entirely never occurred in the books. The books were and are one of my top all time fantasy series, and I was really looking forward to seeing this when I heard about it. Watching it now is like a punch to the gut.

I honestly hope they stop making it before they cock up any more of Jordan's work.


I am so glad I did not read the books. This show is so much nicer without them.


I think it is a mistake to want a film or tv series to follow closely a book. It should be judged on its own merits as inspired by a book. books and visual media have differnt strengths and weaknesses

28 (edited by paisley1 2021-12-06 19:06:20)

Re: The Wheel of Time

105 had more exposition which helps to bring me into this world and I really enjoy it.  Too much crying this week on TV though.

Books to TV, I dunno, it's a mixed bag, depends on the production crew and how cohesive they can make it, and this is definitely cohesive, so it works for me, particularly on the "sleepy Saturday morning in pajamas having cereal" level.  Not an evening drama but a morning show, as it has that "feel" to it, which is kinda hard to describe, you'd have to watch enough TV to understand what I mean, like harmless fantasy fiction fluff.  It's perhaps reminiscent of Willow and The Dark Crystal and Caravan of Courage and other fantasy fiction I grew up watching on Saturday mornings.  If the books make it seem like this is supposed to be Game of Thrones, which is definitely a prime time evening show, this is not that at all, it's too adolescent.

29

Re: The Wheel of Time

paisley1 wrote:

it works for me, particularly on the "sleepy Saturday morning in pajamas having cereal" level.  Not an evening drama but a morning show, as it has that "feel" to it, which is kinda hard to describe, you'd have to watch enough TV to understand what I mean, like harmless fantasy fiction fluff.

Interesting... For me, it's clearly an "evening show" - but then I don't like to watch any shows in the morning! big_smile

30 (edited by paisley1 2021-12-06 19:15:17)

Re: The Wheel of Time

lighton wrote:
paisley1 wrote:

it works for me, particularly on the "sleepy Saturday morning in pajamas having cereal" level.  Not an evening drama but a morning show, as it has that "feel" to it, which is kinda hard to describe, you'd have to watch enough TV to understand what I mean, like harmless fantasy fiction fluff.

Interesting... For me, it's clearly an "evening show" - but then I don't like to watch any shows in the morning! big_smile

Well, it's like that weekend matinee that used to come on after Saturday morning cartoons, like Looney Tunes and everything would end, then there was the news, then at 1:00pm, there'd be some fantasy fiction show, to me, the Wheel of Time is like that; enjoyable weekend fluff viewing.

31 (edited by merc 2021-12-06 19:39:11)

Re: The Wheel of Time

paisley1 wrote:

105 had more exposition which helps to bring me into this world and I really enjoy it.  Too much crying this week on TV though.

Books to TV, I dunno, it's a mixed bag, depends on the production crew and how cohesive they can make it, and this is definitely cohesive, so it works for me, particularly on the "sleepy Saturday morning in pajamas having cereal" level.  Not an evening drama but a morning show, as it has that "feel" to it, which is kinda hard to describe, you'd have to watch enough TV to understand what I mean, like harmless fantasy fiction fluff.  It's perhaps reminiscent of Willow and The Dark Crystal and Caravan of Courage and other fantasy fiction I grew up watching on Saturday mornings.  If the books make it seem like this is supposed to be Game of Thrones, which is definitely a prime time evening show, this is not that at all, it's too adolescent.

an exanple the film "Beautiful Creatures" a film from a similar genre as the Twilight series. Just like Twilight there are a number of books in the Beautiful stable. Only one  film was made corresponding to the first book , rather a nice film dealing with the young love of a teen mortal guy and a "castor" witch girl. In the book once they meet they have telepathic conversations thereafter. That works on the page as you can have mixed dialogue but the film makers decided to not  have that as that would presumably have meant some type of split screen and muddied the film.  A very gentle love story by the way well worth the watch with two actors who clearly had great rapport the main attraction

32

Re: The Wheel of Time

xxFelixDCatxx wrote:

Having read the books, huge disappointment to me. I'd write out all the changes so far, but there are honestly too many. Episode 4 entirely never occurred in the books. The books were and are one of my top all time fantasy series, and I was really looking forward to seeing this when I heard about it. Watching it now is like a punch to the gut.

I honestly hope they stop making it before they cock up any more of Jordan's work.

I'm a little relieved that someone else feels this way. The Husband is pretty much loving it and I'll watch it thru, but I was nursing a resentment  - and some guilt over the resentment. I know moving from one media to another requires adaptation (and Harriet and Brandon were involved), but being so attached to the characters it's pretty disappointing and disheartening.

Having said that, I do appreciate that some things didn't matter and the costumes are interesting.

33 (edited by TheFizza 2021-12-10 11:18:22)

Re: The Wheel of Time

merc wrote:
inkblot wrote:
xxFelixDCatxx wrote:

Having read the books, huge disappointment to me. I'd write out all the changes so far, but there are honestly too many. Episode 4 entirely never occurred in the books. The books were and are one of my top all time fantasy series, and I was really looking forward to seeing this when I heard about it. Watching it now is like a punch to the gut.

I honestly hope they stop making it before they cock up any more of Jordan's work.


I am so glad I did not read the books. This show is so much nicer without them.


I think it is a mistake to want a film or tv series to follow closely a book. It should be judged on its own merits as inspired by a book. books and visual media have differnt strengths and weaknesses

I agree with both of you, merc & inkblot, I've really gotten into this series and perhaps one day I'll try the books the way I did with the Expanse but just as those books aren't that series these aren't, and really they shouldn't be... after all, this is a different medium with different sensibilities.

That being said, I really enjoy those Expanse books but I also really enjoy the Expanse series... I also didn't read the Expanse books until after I started watching the series (and haven't advanced past where the series is). The last books I read before a series was made were The Magicians books and I actually feel that series to have been WAAAAAAY better than those boring pretentious books. hmm

https://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=default&kk=fe18e3ede310c4d0ddb3af64211e19ec

34 (edited by merc 2021-12-09 23:01:13)

Re: The Wheel of Time

The UK "The Spectator" just gave it the thumbs down

"...But something has definitely gone awry with the alchemy that decides whether or not a new TV series is going to run and run or fade swiftly into oblivion. Meddling studio execs obsessed with diversity may be part of the problem. Also, perhaps, the absence of a script editor capable of appreciating that Jordan’s portentous but trite and lumbering dialogue desperately needed a spice-up before being let anywhere near a TV screen.

"The heroes are essentially hobbits with their personality removed"

James Delingpole, Spectator TV critic

35

Re: The Wheel of Time

merc wrote:

The UK "The Spectator" just gave it the thumbs down

"...But something has definitely gone awry with the alchemy that decides whether or not a new TV series is going to run and run or fade swiftly into oblivion. Meddling studio execs obsessed with diversity may be part of the problem. Also, perhaps, the absence of a script editor capable of appreciating that Jordan’s portentous but trite and lumbering dialogue desperately needed a spice-up before being let anywhere near a TV screen.

"The heroes are essentially hobbits with their personality removed"

James Delingpole, Spectator TV critic

Doesn't look like a trustworthy site to me.

Anyway, if you don't like it, stop watching the show. smile

36

Re: The Wheel of Time

Just watched the first 3 eps and so far i'm really enjoying this, reminds me a bit of "Legend of the Seeker", which i liked aswell but havent read the books of The Wheel of Time, so i dident had any expectations beforehand.

https://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=Watchlist&kk=276008292d78a1f619f8bbc10840767b

37

Re: The Wheel of Time

I'm really looking forward to the remaining - oh so few! - episodes, hopefully 1x6 later tonight.

HomerS wrote:

Just watched the first 3 eps and so far i'm really enjoying this, reminds me a bit of "Legend of the Seeker", which i liked aswell but havent read the books of The Wheel of Time, so i dident had any expectations beforehand.

https://next-episode.net/legend-of-the-seeker? Oh, a Sam Raimi show I totally missed back then*. smile

(And whose trailer looks too 2008 for me to start watching now. cool)

* Wish I had discovered next-episode.net already back then!

38

Re: The Wheel of Time

I have never read any of the books. I understand there were 14 yes 14 of them and the guy died defore finishing them and some one else took up the mantle and completed the job

39 (edited by xxFelixDCatxx 2021-12-10 21:08:55)

Re: The Wheel of Time

TeaAndApathy wrote:
xxFelixDCatxx wrote:

Having read the books, huge disappointment to me. I'd write out all the changes so far, but there are honestly too many. Episode 4 entirely never occurred in the books. The books were and are one of my top all time fantasy series, and I was really looking forward to seeing this when I heard about it. Watching it now is like a punch to the gut.

I honestly hope they stop making it before they cock up any more of Jordan's work.

I'm a little relieved that someone else feels this way. The Husband is pretty much loving it and I'll watch it thru, but I was nursing a resentment  - and some guilt over the resentment. I know moving from one media to another requires adaptation (and Harriet and Brandon were involved), but being so attached to the characters it's pretty disappointing and disheartening.

Having said that, I do appreciate that some things didn't matter and the costumes are interesting.


It does not help that I literally just finished re-reading the books for the first time in a decade on some of them.

I'll say a few things about the show I like first. They seem to have gone all out in imagining the different clothing of different peoples and cultures in the books. All of it is colorful, and well done, and honestly matches a fair amount of the description in Jordan's work. Visually, Trollocs were well done, and the visualization of magic is... well I wish they'd show that only other Aes Sedai can see the weaves like that. Muggles just see the effects. I actually do like most of what they've done with Logain. Showing his capture was great, showing his stilling was also... goodish, I don't know why the darkness was shown as being expelled from him unless they're just totally ignoring the books at this stage. That's a super relevant plot point later on.

Things I really wish they'd shown. We didn't really get to see much of 2 Rivers. Which is going to be rough when we have a huge callback to that town in about a season or 2 at this pacing. I like that Jordan established it as an idlyllic village on the edge of nowhere in the books, and think that could have been better done in an episode or two. I missed the black rider that tailed Rand, and the other boys which was the one dark spot on the first few chapters. Then we get introduced to Thom, whom the mayor hired to be there as the town can't always afford a gleeman, this was a big deal. I hate how dirty they did Matt's family... the family of drunks were the Buie's in the book with Cenn Buie being the town drunk/trouble causer. Matt wasn't a thief, just a prankster/gambler. Perrin wasn't married and was apprenticed under a blacksmith, on the verge of his mastery and starting his own forge, but having doubts about leaving his aging master. He also wasn't married, and didn't kill his wife, which straight up had all the readers going wtf.

Leaving the village, one of the main reasons they had trouble getting away from the army was a flying Dark-Spawn, a Draghkr (sorry if I misspelled). Anyways, picture a human skinned dragon that makes a trulling noise to paralyze people, while it creeps up on them and sucks out their soul. Easily one of the creepiest recurring monsters on the series and we get nothing on it.

We also didn't get to see the conscious ghost entity of Shadar Logoth, nor did we see the treasure room, nor did we see where Mat got the Ruby Dagger. All very lame decisions.

Rand Matt, and Thom all landed on a boat after Shadar Logoth, the city with the creepy shadow for the TV viewers. So we're not getting to see a really cool smuggler who helped them, who becomes pivotal to the plot in books 4,5, and 6.

Don't even get me started on that scene with the Tinkers and the Whitecloaks with Perrin and Egwene, or the decision to write out Elias, the only person with the same abilities as Perrin, also a recurring character, also with roles later.


I think it is a mistake to want a film or tv series to follow closely a book. It should be judged on its own merits as inspired by a book. books and visual media have differnt strengths and weaknesses



Mmmm, see this is where I disagree. Arguably one of the best film adaptations of a book series was Harry Potter. And it was because they took one of the most popular book series of all times and made it exactly what was in the books.

Now I agree with certain works... Foundation for example. That was some prime 60's sci-fi, but having read that it was nowhere near as exciting as what's being shown. And no one would have a clue what 'vegan tobacco' was anyways that everyone smoked in the books. Still though, the major plot points of Foundation so far have survived. The FEELING of the world was well translated from books to screen.

In Wheel of Time's case, there have been so many omissions, and major plot points and changes that it no longer feels like the same works. Which is an issue when you account for it being one of the most popular book series of all time, and the built in audience of millions of fans who already were familiar and fans of the universe.

I get that a 14 book/5-6hundred page per book series is gonna have SOME cuts. But Christ the whole fanbase wouldn't mind if you cut books 6,8,9 in their entirety. Book 1 is establishing the characters and the universe. It just feels way too different for me to enjoy at this point.

Mat is the biggest changed character. In the books he was a bit of a womanizer, gambled, and was a care-free rogue who wanted nothing more than to travel and gamble in inns across the country. Now we have hyper responsible Mat with a super dark back story. Not an improvement.

Judging it by it's own merit, this is a B list show with some weak actors, and a huge budget.

40

Re: The Wheel of Time

lighton wrote:
HomerS wrote:

Just watched the first 3 eps and so far i'm really enjoying this, reminds me a bit of "Legend of the Seeker", which i liked aswell but havent read the books of The Wheel of Time, so i dident had any expectations beforehand.

https://next-episode.net/legend-of-the-seeker? Oh, a Sam Raimi show I totally missed back then*. smile

(And whose trailer looks too 2008 for me to start watching now. cool)

* Wish I had discovered next-episode.net already back then!

Yep that's the one, the trailer doesnt do the show justice tho but then again, havent seen it since 2010 so not sure if it aged well but it had bondage and girls in leather clothing which should still work in 2021 aswell wink

Just watched 1x04, really great episode and it even has the Professor from Money Heist, nice.

https://next-episode.net/sig/sig.php?alias=Watchlist&kk=276008292d78a1f619f8bbc10840767b

41

Re: The Wheel of Time

xxFelixDCatxx wrote:

Visually, Trollocs were well done, and the visualization of magic is... well I wish they'd show that only other Aes Sedai can see the weaves like that. Muggles just see the effects.

But doing that the same way for the TV show would make it visually less satisfying and more confusing for the viewer... In a world where movie theaters are issuing warnings to audiences attending screenings of Star Wars: The Last Jedi over a scene in the film that contains no sound, imagine what would happen if people in a fight sequence would just drop to the ground or die without being near anyone else. cool

Thanks for all the book info!


HomerS wrote:

Yep that's the one, the trailer doesnt do the show justice tho but then again, havent seen it since 2010 so not sure if it aged well but it had bondage and girls in leather clothing which should still work in 2021 aswell wink

big_smile

42

Re: The Wheel of Time

Well, it made me quite mad!

I was enjoying the nicest on and off binging over a few days until last night, I realized that it isn't an episode dump, that I'd watched through to the most recent episode, and that now I'll have to agonizingly wait from week to week for a new episode!  Bah~!

There is an upside though.  I was so tired when watching episode, umm, 6, I dozed through portions of it then just picked up and watched from about the point I woke up to.

Spoiler

The point where they all entered the magically opened door/passage and the one guy Mat stayed behind with cold feet and let the door close.

I back-tracked a tiny bit to get up to speed but maybe now I'll take the opportunity to rewatch the parts I might have missed in their entirety if I can manage to do that with a fresh wakeful mind before the new episode airs in a couple days.

As for the show it is enjoyable though I almost wish I hadn't started watching it until the season's episodes had already aired.  When I went to watch the first episode it was not knowing if I'd even like it, well it didn't take long to know I liked it a lot.

43

Re: The Wheel of Time

lighton wrote:
xxFelixDCatxx wrote:

Visually, Trollocs were well done, and the visualization of magic is... well I wish they'd show that only other Aes Sedai can see the weaves like that. Muggles just see the effects.

But doing that the same way for the TV show would make it visually less satisfying and more confusing for the viewer... In a world where movie theaters are issuing warnings to audiences attending screenings of Star Wars: The Last Jedi over a scene in the film that contains no sound, imagine what would happen if people in a fight sequence would just drop to the ground or die without being near anyone else. cool

Thanks for all the book info!


HomerS wrote:

Yep that's the one, the trailer doesnt do the show justice tho but then again, havent seen it since 2010 so not sure if it aged well but it had bondage and girls in leather clothing which should still work in 2021 aswell wink

big_smile


I mean I hear you, but my point still stands since Moraine already said in the episode where they were containing Logain that she 'couldn't see or sense his weaves' because he's a man, and men and women weave different kinds of magic and can't sense the other sex's magic. Another thing they've downplayed because of the trans movement, and the need for shows to be woke for some reason. But they've definitely preserved this concept in the show. They've just done a piss poor job of showing it.

Literally in the books saidain was the male source of power, and saidar was the women's source of power.

My really big issue so far is... which character are we supposed to like at this point? In the books I loved Mat probably the most, he was the lovable rouge... the Han Solo of the group. Rand was the only reason Mat made it so far in the books during their journey to Tar Valon, and you loved Rand because he was the rock of the group. Them showing up in Tar Valon and just stating 'well after a month on the road you'd be tired too' misses tons of character development with Matt and Rand. Matt's worsening condition due to the dagger, and Rand's utter refusal to give up on his friend, no matter what was cut out entirely.

I could massively spoil something in the show too, but I'm not gonna. I can see a major change to the books though already, it actually occurred to me after the last episode, and I know it's going to kill any love left for Mat, it will make zero sense in the long run, and it will have been done solely to make the show 'darker' because they're trying to make this Game of Thrones, when it's just not.

In fact that's the main annoyance for me. This is not A Song of Ice and Fire, it's The Wheel of Time. There have been too many massive changes to characters and plot points for it to be at all enjoyable to anyone who's read the source material at this point.

44 (edited by TeaAndApathy 2021-12-17 01:14:51)

Re: The Wheel of Time

Just FYI, the actor who plays Mat left the show - hence the issue with Mat and the Waygate. The character will return in season 2, but with a new actor in the role.

Also, season 2 will introduce Agelmar, Uno, Ingtar, and Masema and (presumably) Faile.

45

Re: The Wheel of Time

TeaAndApathy wrote:

Just FYI, the actor who plays Mat left the show - hence the issue with Mat and the Waygate. The character will return in season 2, but with a new actor in the role.

Thanks. How weird. I wonder why...

"‘The Wheel Of Time’ Boss On Mat Cauthon Recast, How Many Seasons For Series – Deadline" https://deadline.com/2021/11/the-wheel- … 70995/amp/

46

Re: The Wheel of Time

TeaAndApathy wrote:

Just FYI, the actor who plays Mat left the show - hence the issue with Mat and the Waygate. The character will return in season 2, but with a new actor in the role.

Also, season 2 will introduce Agelmar, Uno, Ingtar, and Masema and (presumably) Faile.

. Thanks for explaining.
well it is no great loss to the show as he was a real loser ( the actor played the role excellently)

47

Re: The Wheel of Time

merc wrote:
TeaAndApathy wrote:

Just FYI, the actor who plays Mat left the show - hence the issue with Mat and the Waygate. The character will return in season 2, but with a new actor in the role.

Also, season 2 will introduce Agelmar, Uno, Ingtar, and Masema and (presumably) Faile.

. Thanks for explaining.
well it is no great loss to the show as he was a real loser ( the actor played the role excellently)

The way they rewrote Mat's character is truly heinous. He was not like that in the books, nor was his family. In the books, Mat's character is a rather likeable and amusing scoundrel and his future is...amazing.

I wonder how they'll fix it to give the TV Mat that future.

48 (edited by merc 2021-12-24 19:18:52)

Re: The Wheel of Time

eps 8 end of season?  some good action scenes

Spoiler

well Mat makes one final? appearance entering the dark city again. 

Spoiler

So the big battle was not the big battle after all lol and all 5 of them figure and the story is not really about the dragon after all. rather an anti climax? And who are those nasty looking Amazons at the end coming in their boats and wiping out that poor liitle kid on the beach.....what did the kid do to deserve  that! seems like we are back at the beginning again? I take it we are at the end of the season?

49 (edited by inkblot 2021-12-25 02:18:35)

Re: The Wheel of Time

Reminds me of that song.

The wheels on the Bus go round and round

I did enjoy this really short season. Anything with less then 22 episodes should not be called a season. And I am glad it was picked up for a second season.

50

Re: The Wheel of Time

merc wrote:

eps 8 end of season?  some good action scenes

Spoiler

well Mat makes one final? appearance entering the dark city again. 

Spoiler

So the big battle was not the big battle after all lol and all 5 of them figure and the story is not really about the dragon after all. rather an anti climax? And who are those nasty looking Amazons at the end coming in their boats and wiping out that poor liitle kid on the beach.....what did the kid do to deserve  that! seems like we are back at the beginning again? I take it we are at the end of the season?


I had to stop watching because I loved the books and this is at this point a terrible travesty to the original works. I hope they stop making it.

I can answer your questions from the book. But careful reading as I could spoil future seasons.

Spoiler

The first battle against the dark one at the end of book one wasn't against the actual Dark One. It was against Ishmael (sp?), one of the Forsaken. The Forsaken are a set of 13 people who are given immortality in exchange for serving the Dark One. When the Dark One was sealed in his prison, the Forsaken were also sealed... but closer to the surface. As the seals weaken the Forsaken are getting loosed into the world. Think of them as the 4 horseman. Anyways Ishmael had gone crazy and thought he was the Dark One in the books, it is later revealed.

And second question.

Spoiler

These are the Seachan. Basically they're the descendants of Arthur Hawking's armies who left and settled another continent. Think Europeans that settled the US then went uncontacted for 2000 years sort of stuff. The Seachan believe that all the people in the main continent deserve to die for abandoning their promises to Hawking, which honestly is just their religious bullshit. The Seachan use leashed Aes Sedai, which give them control of their powers through the leash, and they are not as non-violent. Their ongoing invasion of the main continent will be a driving plot point for the next few seasons.