51

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

toidol wrote:
Moze wrote:
CarmarthenLad wrote:

"Waaaaaaaaah! I don't wanna have a mirror held up to my white privilege. Waaaaaaaaaaaah!"

What is it you right-wing, 'anti-woke' types would say?

Snowflake.

lol

Why do you think forced sexual/gender/political/race diversity is a positive thing in series/movies? Explain so even a snowflake would understand please.

Interesting that you feel it’s forced..

You mentioned earlier it’s fine if it has a point. I suppose the inverse is also true? If it doesn’t affect the plot every charachter could be gay/poc/trans/...? At least not just white straight males, right?

As long as its an engaging story not pushing a political agenda I'm fine with it.

The main problem with the woke agenda being pushed at the moment isn't that they want more diversity/representation or whatever, it's that they feel the desperate need to vilify straight white men to do it.

52 (edited by g371 2021-04-22 18:53:18)

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

CarmarthenLad wrote:

What is it you right-wing, 'anti-woke' types would say?

Snowflake.

lol

Btw, I'm ultra-center-wing and trash snowflakes on both sides, today was making antivaxxers cry big_smile I'm tired both of gender-fluid-socialists and QAnon type retards equally smile It's like half of population has lost a common sense. And it's super obvious that from Hollywood is raining force fed selected topics - like in this show it's out of context, same in bunch of other recent shows we have useless detours. For example Clarice - some black FBI agents are forming some black brotherhood (I came to watch serial killers investigations); For All Mankind - some black astronaut is ranting for minutes how she should be in a higher position, since a black women never had it plus crooked math how many black astronauts are in NASA; Star Trek: Discovery - my pronouns are them/they, haha big_smile etc. etc. etc. - the list is long, it was cute first 20 times big_smile

By now there are thousands of memes made about "Netflix adoption" - I'm not the only one who has noticed the pattern big_smile

https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aYyebQO_460s.jpg

And I have nothing against for example a gay character if it fits the story, the issue is when it's here, have a couple oppressed gays and please feel some guilt or compassion or whatever the agenda is this time. Or when it's obvious that somebody tried really hard to push "diversity" big_smile And it so fake that it's out of place - like it was in this show. When you watch it and literally can feel that writers were sitting at the table and breaking their brain where to inject the woke dose smile

Imagine the opposite agenda - for example, there is an idea to give Captain America to some guy, but it turns out he is an illegal Mexican imigrant and to "save American jobs" it's given to some poster American instead big_smile Would be a bit stupid, no?

53 (edited by paisley1 2021-04-23 08:55:53)

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

proteinnerd wrote:
toidol wrote:
Moze wrote:
CarmarthenLad wrote:

"Waaaaaaaaah! I don't wanna have a mirror held up to my white privilege. Waaaaaaaaaaaah!"

What is it you right-wing, 'anti-woke' types would say?

Snowflake.

lol

Why do you think forced sexual/gender/political/race diversity is a positive thing in series/movies? Explain so even a snowflake would understand please.

Interesting that you feel it’s forced..

You mentioned earlier it’s fine if it has a point. I suppose the inverse is also true? If it doesn’t affect the plot every charachter could be gay/poc/trans/...? At least not just white straight males, right?

As long as its an engaging story not pushing a political agenda I'm fine with it.

The main problem with the woke agenda being pushed at the moment isn't that they want more diversity/representation or whatever, it's that they feel the desperate need to vilify straight white men to do it.

Vilifying, insulting, and attacking the very people you're trying to win over lacks moral integrity and is destined to create increased polarization and entrenchment not connection and unity, and it also doesn't help the very real social causes that the woke movement has latched onto, like gender equality, minority rights, and freedom of speech.  The woke movement is not a social reform movement though, it's a belief system where conditions apply on what is right and wrong and how to think, speak and behave, mostly centered around outrage and tantrums, where being overly socially sensitive about any social slight or perceived social slight is the core belief, like thought control police.  There is no freedom of speech or room to love people unconditionally, flaws and all, and attempt to understand where a person is coming from within the woke movement, it's outrage and conditional love, which is why it is wrong.


g371 wrote:

Btw, I'm ultra-center-wing and trash snowflakes on both sides, today was making antivaxxers cry I'm tired both of gender-fluid-socialists and QAnon type retards equally  It's like half of population has lost a common sense. And it's super obvious that from Hollywood is raining force fed selected topics - like in this show it's out of context, same in bunch of other recent shows we have useless detours. For example Clarice - some black FBI agents are forming some black brotherhood (I came to watch serial killers investigations); For All Mankind - some black astronaut is ranting for minutes how she should be in a higher position, since a black women never had it plus crooked math how many black astronauts are in NASA; Startrack Discovery - my pronouns are them/they, haha big_smile etc. etc. etc. - the list is long, it was cute first 20 times big_smile

By now there are thousands of memes made about "Netflix adoption" - I'm not the only one who has noticed the pattern big_smile

And I have nothing against for example a gay character if it fits the story, the issue is when it's here, have a couple oppressed gays and please feel some guilt or compassion or whatever the agenda is this time. Or when it's obvious that somebody tried really hard to push "diversity" big_smile And it so fake that it's out of place - like it was in this show. When you watch it and literally can feel that writers were sitting at the table and breaking their brain where to inject the woke dose

I agree that if they just wrote interesting stories without implementing such heavy handed woke messaging that the viewership knows is wrong and disagrees with, we would only complain about bad writing instead of both bad writing and bad messaging! lolz. lol  It's really made TV worse, and takes me out of the fiction like this show did, because the messaging is trying to tell us how to think, instead of just trying to entertain.

54

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

Come one people, keep this civil or we'll delete the recent posts and/or lock this thread.
Keep it on topic.
This is your only warning.

DRM "manages access" in the same way that Prison "manages freedom".
http://xkcd.com/488/

55 (edited by paisley1 2021-04-23 08:37:05)

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

Wizard wrote:

Come one people, keep this civil or we'll delete the recent posts and/or lock this thread.
Keep it on topic.
This is your only warning.

I was thinking the same thing Wizard, this forum did derail, so you can see what type of contempt this show elicits from its viewers, and the problem is that The Falcon and the Winter Soldier has scenes that are meant to provoke the viewer to become aware of the social inequality in America and across the world, and has portrayed it in a way that is anti-establishment, from both Sam the protagonist and Karli the antagonist, so I think it's fair game to talk about it here, however, as problematic and pervasive as this type of messaging has become, it's not worth a flame war; we're too small of a group of commenters.  I'd rather talk about the things we like and are interested in than constantly rag on the same old problems on TV, it's just hard to find. wink

56 (edited by merc_1 2021-04-23 14:33:12)

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

Its a choice between whether you want simple  fun entertaimment ( me) or some intellectual sub story ( not me ). I dont need film or tv show makers to educate me they dont have the expertise or intellectual stature or background mostly. When actors and other celebs go down that route "who do they think they are?" One example of a duff attempt was in Star Trek Discovery when Adira Tal? told Lt Stamet she wasnt comfortable in using "she" rather use "they" - well what a copout for the show  for a trans/non binary person  since the character has multiple memories so "they" makes sense and nothing to do with trans/non binary? There is another example in The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina ... which is really bad and inept a whole eps ..dont get me on that. (if this strays too far then just delete the post)

57

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

That's the point, for 4 episodes they are jumping out of planes, making bad jokes, punching each other and hey, btw, here is some carefully designed detour smile

Maybe I have an oversensitive detector for out of place stuff since I deal with scammers and hackers every day.

58

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

g371 wrote:

Maybe I have an oversensitive detector for out of place stuff since I deal with scammers and hackers every day.

Rough neighborhood? ... or do you work in fraud prevention? cool

59

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

merc_1 wrote:

Its a choice between whether you want simple  fun entertaimment ( me) or some intellectual sub story ( not me ). I dont need film or tv show makers to educate me they dont have the expertise or intellectual stature or background mostly. When actors and other celebs go down that route "who do they think they are?" One example of a duff attempt was in Star Trek Discovery when Adira Tal? told Lt Stamet she wasnt comfortable in using "she" rather use "they" - well what a copout for the show  for a trans/non binary person  since the character has multiple memories so "they" makes sense and nothing to do with trans/non binary? There is another example in The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina ... which is really bad and inept a whole eps ..dont get me on that. (if this strays too far then just delete the post)

Using a TV show as a platform to propagate one political or social belief system and agenda over another one, is plainly wrong because it divides your audience and takes the audience out of the fiction, and sadly shows aren't taking a more nuanced and centralist approach to social and political points of view, but are taking sides and being heavy handed about it, and it's bad for TV and like you point out, it does a disservice to the causes that they're trying to support.  I also think it's lazy, unimaginative, and unintellectual, to simply write social commentary directly from the news and straight into a show.  That's a great way to sum up the writing on The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, lazy; just like g371 has pointed out.

60 (edited by merc_1 2021-04-23 21:29:15)

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

on other matters I suppose its just to sell the show to other than white straight audiences? Or to attract the LBQ etc. eg Black Lightning, a show I find hard to take, is too black for me, so I sympathise with the minorities who dont feel represented .

61

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

I found the forced agenda really soured the whole series for me, its a shame, I was really looking forward to a buddy cop superhero series.

I might have misunderstood but did they really just compare the fallout of "the snap" to the struggle of blacks when Sam was lecturing to the senators in the streets!!! I definitely could be wrong cause I'd pretty much tuned out by then and was thinking how underwhelming the finale had been.

If this really is the future of Marvel, I'm out.

62

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

There was a notification that the series has ended.

Spoiler

If you watched to the end of the credits you'll see Sam is now Cap America. So my guess is that it wont be called Falcon etc, it will now be Cap America and Winter Soldier

And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes....

63

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

davejo90 wrote:

There was a notification that the series has ended.

Spoiler

If you watched to the end of the credits you'll see Sam is now Cap America. So my guess is that it wont be called Falcon etc, it will now be Cap America and Winter Soldier

From what I've read it's a 50-50 chance if there'll be another season to promote Captain America 4 or if this first season has to suffice. Guess we'll see. smile

64 (edited by merc_1 2021-04-26 09:40:55)

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

lighton wrote:
davejo90 wrote:

There was a notification that the series has ended.

Spoiler

If you watched to the end of the credits you'll see Sam is now Cap America. So my guess is that it wont be called Falcon etc, it will now be Cap America and Winter Soldier

From what I've read it's a 50-50 chance if there'll be another season to promote Captain America 4 or if this first season has to suffice. Guess we'll see. smile


Spoiler

Capt America with wings. That was a laugh? He dont have the same charisma as the original Rock Hudson type figure from the 1950s?

What next - give him a hammer to go with the shield? Having just a shield always felt he was half naked. Thor has retired, so he dont need it anymore?

65 (edited by Wizard 2021-04-26 15:50:41)

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

[deleted]

66 (edited by Wizard 2021-04-26 15:51:47)

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

ishma-el wrote:
nightcrow wrote:
g371 wrote:

or

3) Could not care less about your effects in an imaginary superheroes world - if I would want to hear about it, I would watch some documentary about slavery or alike


And force feeding that indeed is revolting. Not to mention that these shows are sold outside USA and these are pure USA problems. Show after show I'm thinking I will be watching one thing, but it turns out it has some intelligence insulting brainwashing inserts - and you can virtue signal all you want, but it still will not be what I wanted to watch (non-political ass kicking silly superheroes, did not even paid an attention to the race until bs part started).

Yup - I have dropped so many shows because we are being force fed woke agendas. Just let me enjoy my shows without bringing politics, sexual orientation, skin colour, religion and the like. Shows have all become a lecture on how the right wings are racists and evil. Just let me enjoy good old TV and drop all the side crap.

[deleted]

Wow.

2020.  Meh.

67

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

Graybags, ya, wow, I wish I got a chance to read it! lol

68

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

paisley1 wrote:

Graybags, ya, wow, I wish I got a chance to read it! lol

I was stunned that somebody would actually write such things in a public forum, I really was.  It was sexist, racist, bigoted, toxic nastiness all rolled up into one horrendous paragraph.

2020.  Meh.

69 (edited by paisley1 2021-04-26 18:55:49)

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

graybags wrote:
paisley1 wrote:

Graybags, ya, wow, I wish I got a chance to read it! lol

I was stunned that somebody would actually write such things in a public forum, I really was.  It was sexist, racist, bigoted, toxic nastiness all rolled up into one horrendous paragraph.

I didn't realize.  That's not good. 

Such a response kinda goes to prove the point that I was making about why messaging a strong social and political point of view in a TV show is wrong, because it elicits contempt from those who are on different sides of the argument.  It's a form of antagonism from the show towards people in the audience, telling them what to think and that they're bad, and that doesn't bring people together, it only serves to further polarize and entrench sides.

I should probably finish watching this show, right?

70

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

paisley1 wrote:
graybags wrote:
paisley1 wrote:

Graybags, ya, wow, I wish I got a chance to read it! lol

I was stunned that somebody would actually write such things in a public forum, I really was.  It was sexist, racist, bigoted, toxic nastiness all rolled up into one horrendous paragraph.

I didn't realize.  That's not good. 

Such a response kinda goes to prove the point that I was making about why messaging a strong social and political point of view in a TV show is wrong, because it elicits contempt from those who are on different sides of the argument.  It's a form of antagonism from the show towards people in the audience, telling them what to think and that they're bad, and that doesn't change anyone, it only serves to further polarize and entrench sides.

I should probably finish watching this show, right?

I guess you could also argue the topics such as the themes in this show get people thinking and talking about them, even if they are ramming ideologies down your throat.  I guess all this moralistic nonsense is aimed at children and small-minded adults, in the hope that it could bring about change.  But has a TV show ever managed that?

2020.  Meh.

71 (edited by paisley1 2021-04-26 19:37:32)

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

graybags wrote:
paisley1 wrote:
graybags wrote:
paisley1 wrote:

Graybags, ya, wow, I wish I got a chance to read it! lol

I was stunned that somebody would actually write such things in a public forum, I really was.  It was sexist, racist, bigoted, toxic nastiness all rolled up into one horrendous paragraph.

I didn't realize.  That's not good. 

Such a response kinda goes to prove the point that I was making about why messaging a strong social and political point of view in a TV show is wrong, because it elicits contempt from those who are on different sides of the argument.  It's a form of antagonism from the show towards people in the audience, telling them what to think and that they're bad, and that doesn't change anyone, it only serves to further polarize and entrench sides.

I should probably finish watching this show, right?

I guess you could also argue the topics such as the themes in this show get people thinking and talking about them, even if they are ramming ideologies down your throat.  I guess all this moralistic nonsense is aimed at children and small-minded adults, in the hope that it could bring about change.  But has a TV show ever managed that?

There needs to be humility and tact at the point of entry, considering all sides of an argument; then and only then, can TV be used to inspire better behaviour, because its talking to all sides.  As soon as they take a hard and fast side, they lose the moral high ground, and entrench sides. 

TV is an inspirational medium not a moral medium, and just the lift it gives in watching it is enough to accomplish its purpose; it doesn't need to sermonize social and political points of view to inspire.

72

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

I didn't find the show particularly egregious in pushing an agenda, especially as the Isaiah arc was straight out of the comics (in those 'woke' days of 2003) as was a lot of the stuff regarding Sam's being accepted as Cap (actually it was a bit more pronounced in the comics). You can believe the characters have these concerns because the creators are pushing an agenda if you like, but I don't think any of it was unrealistic for how the characters would feel in today's USA. I wonder if some of the strong reactions might be a case of hammers looking for nails.

73 (edited by paisley1 2021-04-26 23:27:32)

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

mrverene wrote:

I didn't find the show particularly egregious in pushing an agenda, especially as the Isaiah arc was straight out of the comics (in those 'woke' days of 2003) as was a lot of the stuff regarding Sam's being accepted as Cap (actually it was a bit more pronounced in the comics). You can believe the characters have these concerns because the creators are pushing an agenda if you like, but I don't think any of it was unrealistic for how the characters would feel in today's USA. I wonder if some of the strong reactions might be a case of hammers looking for nails.

I agree, it wasn't particularly egregious, but it was enough to take me out of the fiction. Sort of like, "Wait, what are you trying to say here?  That's a bit heavy handed."  I think its more of a case of seeing a pattern throughout many shows these days, and this being another one on the list.

When I saw Carl Lumbly playing Isaiah Bradley the retired super soldier I shouted, "DIXON!!!!"

Ok I just finished the end of The Falcon and the Winter soldier and I couldn't help but note that LOST is on Disney+ now!  "Squirrel!" lol  No attention span for Marvel, but LOST, wow, what an amazing show, so worth the re-watch; is this 4k, LOST looks and sounds amazing!

74

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

Listen to the Drinker, his reviews are usually spot on!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e0B_7es0_g

Oh and Ishma-el only said he was a black man from Africa and even he is tired of the American woke agenda. And something about gays n stuff not being as accepted in Africa as in the US. Though he might have used a few different words to explain it wink

75

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier [Action, Adventure, Drama]

Moze wrote:

Oh and Ishma-el only said he was a black man from Africa and even he is tired of the American woke agenda. And something about gays n stuff not being as accepted in Africa as in the US. Though he might have used a few different words to explain it wink

Parts of Africa are still on the really dark side of anti-woke (or whatever you want to call this):

In parts of Africa, people with albinism are hunted for their body parts
https://www.latimes.com/world/africa/la … story.html

sad