Phanlix, piraterepublic, SgtSaint - consider this a formal warning. Between the three of you, the last twenty posts include calling other members trash, comparing them to Nazis, telling people to STFU, deadnaming, and dehumanizing language about real people. I don't care who started it or who was "provoked." None of that is allowed here, in this thread or any other. The next time it happens from any of you, it's a ban.

I'll most likely delete this whole thread eventually.

For everyone else: this is a TV site. Argue about casting, writing, whether a show is any good - that's what the forum is for. But keep it about the shows, not about the person on the other side of the argument. Disagree all you like; just do it with some basic respect. That applies equally to every side of the argument, here and in every other topic on these forums.

SgtSaint wrote:

piraterepublic wrote:

eliot page is not a young boy. hes a man. playing a warrior over the age of 20

No.  Ellen Page (aka: Elliot Page) is a woman.  Pretending to be a man.  Playing a warrior.  Its practically the plots of Victor/Victoria or Tootsie.  What we used to see an outlandish comedic plot is now being pushed on us as some kind new reality and we are all expected to play along with those delusions.

I don't care if someone is gay, cross dress or whatever.  Enjoy your life and be yourself.  That's awesome.  But those same people do not have the right or power to tell me that I have to be co-dependent or an enabler.  If Ellen decided she was a dog we'd get her the mental help needed.  So why is it we kept being told we have to go along with these delusions?

Again - be gay: Cool.  Dress as a ma, live as a man, whatever.  But don't try to tell everyone else what they have to believe about you.  You don't get to tell me what I think of your choices.

as far as i am concerned when a actors plays someone i refer to them that way. when they never get off the stage i may not respect them, but i still refer to them as the fake thing they want to be.
just like i tell every doctor or government official who asks about how i like to be addressed as.
i prefer to be referred to as LORD HUMUNGOUS MASTER OF ALL HE SEES...
and let them decide if they will use my pronoun.

( if ellen decided it was a dog, i would drop off adoption papers...)

( and you are so wrong on your facts about the middle east.)
which is a woke rewriting of history, one of the first
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine

▼Spoiler

For the British, the United Kingdom had agreed in the McMahon–Hussein Correspondence that it would honour Arab independence in case of a revolt but, in the end, the United Kingdom and France divided what had been Ottoman Syria under the Sykes–Picot Agreement—

Mhmm.
Yep.
So the real reason you were so offended by the Trek forum
You were just
like him
I get it.
Again you push the concept of
reverse racism, but
it just shows who you really are. Maybe if I keep using
random hard breaks like you do
I'll understand.

Phanlix wrote:

You know what is racist though. Commenting every. damn. time. on how ruined a show or piece of media is because they recast some character as another race. Or jumping in on every single mention of being gay or trans in any media.

see there you go being woke..
guess what. HISTORY matters.. you cannot say a white character has all the same motivations and history as a black character.
the same childhood, the same upbringing, the same life.
not and be a good writer.

but hey lets forget all that and just do whatever is publicly popular.
THAT IS RACISM. that is being woke.

lets make make Abraham Lincoln black...
but lets burn the world down if malcolm x is cast as norwegian.

its hypocritical and bull shite.
and that is the problem with woke..

you would never allow a iconic trans or gay character be made into a catholic puritan
without bitching up a storm. but the other way??? no one can say a word or your a bigoted racist???
i call bullshite
i bet if andrew tate was cast as the artist formally known as  prince you would boycott the movie.
i bet you would protest the opening.
( i would and could with a clear conscious because i am not a hypocrite)

no one is required to accept or like a choice made by someone else.
and they are not required to say it dont smell like shit if they think it does.

there is nothing i HATE more then morally righteous hypocrites , well maybe religiously righteous hypocrites
then there are the politically righteous hypocrites  or maybe the people who use your and you're wrong...
( i am lying on the last one... stupid english spelling rules  )

Yeah you're definitely ignorant bigoted trash just like every other Trump supporter out there. I've heard this exact rant from my grandfather. He's high ranked in the KKK. You sound exactly like him.

And still someone is going to decide for me that my issue is with the person's sexuality.

I think that is incredibly enlightening about the person that has to twist and do mental gymnastics to find a fight.

You know what is racist though. Commenting every. damn. time. on how ruined a show or piece of media is because they recast some character as another race. Or jumping in on every single mention of being gay or trans in any media.

see there you go being woke..
guess what. HISTORY matters.. you cannot say a white character has all the same motivations and history as a black character.
the same childhood, the same upbringing, the same life.
not and be a good writer.

but hey lets forget all that and just do whatever is publicly popular.
THAT IS RACISM. that is being woke.

lets make make Abraham Lincoln black...
but lets burn the world down if malcolm x is cast as norwegian.

its hypocritical and bull shite.
and that is the problem with woke..

you would never allow a iconic trans or gay character be made into a catholic puritan
without bitching up a storm. but the other way??? no one can say a word or your a bigoted racist???
i call bullshite
i bet if andrew tate was cast as the artist formally known as  prince you would boycott the movie.
i bet you would protest the opening.
( i would and could with a clear conscious because i am not a hypocrite)

no one is required to accept or like a choice made by someone else.
and they are not required to say it dont smell like shit if they think it does.

there is nothing i HATE more then morally righteous hypocrites , well maybe religiously righteous hypocrites
then there are the politically righteous hypocrites  or maybe the people who use your and you're wrong...
( i am lying on the last one... stupid english spelling rules  )

people are not required to like anybody else.  THAT IS NOT HATE
and hating a tv show or episode is not racism.

canonically is still raciest to change a characters race, no matter when it was done.
( and yes Jackson did a  fantastic job)
but if they hired him because he was black its still racist and woke.
its not racist to say that....

Every time it's racist? Really? This is like your comparison to me as a Zionist or Nazi (same things really). I mean shit, the original author of Invincible even admitted he was unconsciously racist when he made every single character some version of white, and wished he'd made them as he did in the show. Is it really racist of him to change his own characters? Is admitting representation actually does matter really so bad?

Sure if it's not just a best man for the job sort of thing, it certainly would be. However Iron Man, Shield, and Nick Fury were very minor characters in the comics compared to X-men and spiderman. They're only popular now due to the success of the movies. I think you'd be very hard pressed to find a die-hard Nick Fury fan that actually cared if he was white. It certainly doesn't have the same impact as making, say, Spiderman into a black guy.

You know what is racist though. Commenting every. damn. time. on how ruined a show or piece of media is because they recast some character as another race. Or jumping in on every single mention of being gay or trans in any media.

piraterepublic wrote:

eliot page is not a young boy. hes a man. playing a warrior over the age of 20

No.  Ellen Page (aka: Elliot Page) is a woman.  Pretending to be a man.  Playing a warrior.  Its practically the plots of Victor/Victoria or Tootsie.  What we used to see an outlandish comedic plot is now being pushed on us as some kind new reality and we are all expected to play along with those delusions.

I don't care if someone is gay, cross dress or whatever.  Enjoy your life and be yourself.  That's awesome.  But those same people do not have the right or power to tell me that I have to be co-dependent or an enabler.  If Ellen decided she was a dog we'd get her the mental help needed.  So why is it we kept being told we have to go along with these delusions?

Again - be gay: Cool.  Dress as a ma, live as a man, whatever.  But don't try to tell everyone else what they have to believe about you.  You don't get to tell me what I think of your choices.

Yep, straight up transphobia. This is exactly what I've come to expect from you. That and the racism.

piraterepublic wrote:

eliot page is not a young boy. hes a man. playing a warrior over the age of 20

No.  Ellen Page (aka: Elliot Page) is a woman.  Pretending to be a man.  Playing a warrior.  Its practically the plots of Victor/Victoria or Tootsie.  What we used to see an outlandish comedic plot is now being pushed on us as some kind new reality and we are all expected to play along with those delusions.

I don't care if someone is gay, cross dress or whatever.  Enjoy your life and be yourself.  That's awesome.  But those same people do not have the right or power to tell me that I have to be co-dependent or an enabler.  If Ellen decided she was a dog we'd get her the mental help needed.  So why is it we kept being told we have to go along with these delusions?

Again - be gay: Cool.  Dress as a ma, live as a man, whatever.  But don't try to tell everyone else what they have to believe about you.  You don't get to tell me what I think of your choices.

as far as i am concerned when a actors plays someone i refer to them that way. when they never get off the stage i may not respect them, but i still refer to them as the fake thing they want to be.
just like i tell every doctor or government official who asks about how i like to be addressed as.
i prefer to be referred to as LORD HUMUNGOUS MASTER OF ALL HE SEES...
and let them decide if they will use my pronoun.

( if ellen decided it was a dog, i would drop off adoption papers...)

( and you are so wrong on your facts about the middle east.)
which is a woke rewriting of history, one of the first
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine

eliot page is not a young boy. hes a man. playing a warrior over the age of 20

No.  Ellen Page (aka: Elliot Page) is a woman.  Pretending to be a man.  Playing a warrior.  Its practically the plots of Victor/Victoria or Tootsie.  What we used to see an outlandish comedic plot is now being pushed on us as some kind new reality and we are all expected to play along with those delusions.

I don't care if someone is gay, cross dress or whatever.  Enjoy your life and be yourself.  That's awesome.  But those same people do not have the right or power to tell me that I have to be co-dependent or an enabler.  If Ellen decided she was a dog we'd get her the mental help needed.  So why is it we kept being told we have to go along with these delusions?

Again - be gay: Cool.  Dress as a ma, live as a man, whatever.  But don't try to tell everyone else what they have to believe about you.  You don't get to tell me what I think of your choices.

Doctor Who.
I've said before and I'll say again: I like Jody Whitiker as an actor and I think she got the raw end of the deal.  The large part of the internet blamed her and having a female doctor as the first nail in the coffin of Doctor Who and that's not right or fair.  At the same time they put her in they also slashed the budget, dropped the musical genius that gave all the characters their own themes replacing it with generic crap, and the scripts went on a horrible direction including how she couldn't drive the TARDIS for 8 episodes etc. This was also when they decided to start adding in magic and gods to Doctor Who. As well as some purely LSD based bad guys and sets.  Not her fault the production heads took a bad turn at the same time she was cast.

I don't give a tinker's dam if the next doctor was black.  Heck I don't care that he was gay.  We had Capt. Jack Harkness re-occuring throughout Doctor Who and he was so great they gave him his own show in Torchwood which was also great and also had a couple more gay characters.  But they did them all WELL.  The stories were good.  The acting and directing was good.  The characters were wonderful.

This Doctor was black: I don't give a shyte.  I was way more insulted by him turning the beloved sonic screw driver into something that looks like a sneaker sole with buttons.  Just WTF is this piece of s***?

Why did I mention "Space babies" in that other thread?  Because it was said like 100 times in 3 minutes just the same as in that Doctor Who - just like how the character commented in the episode

So yeah the term "space baby" every 5th word of every sentence for 3 pages of dialog was as annoying here as it was there.  "4d baby" would have been better for a baby that also lives in a 4th dimension of time. "Transdimentional baby"... "Gravity squid"... something... just about anything the least little bit of a effort on the part of the writers to do better.

We all saw what they did to Doctor Who in those anniversary episodes where they brought back Donna Noble and David Tennant.  They beat and berated Tennant's doctor; demeaning and dismissive in nearly every scene.  I had flash backs to what they did to Captain Picard in the first two seasons of the Picard series when they took a great character that sacrificed so much, so many times to save the human race and turn him into a messaging and virtue signaling punching bag.  Both cases were disgraceful.

Getting lectured on pronouns by an alien.  A truly fugly transdaughter and all the P.C. trying to tell us all that he's a woman and that (s)he's beautiful.  Those episodes totally ruined the sacrifice that Donna made during the original story line and and and just to have a 3 episode agenda messaging arc.

As for Gnuti Gutwi - He was horrible and took the part to do more messaging and would only take the part if he could be flamboyant and Davis wanted that even though he was already suffering years of fan backlash for it already.  I've heard he's good on stage so maybe TV isn't his best medium or like Whitiker he was a victim of the writing and directing.  Just trying to be a little fair to the actor.

Combine truly horrible acting with total crap scripts and you get failure that we all predicted as far back as the first announcement that Disney was backing it.  Way back then you had WhoCulture on YouTube trying to calm the fans about how it was only a distributing deal and they wouldn't be DisneyFi-ing Doctor Who: Later it came out that Disney was sending feedback notes back to production for changes.  Groups, tubers, boards - all predicted this was going to be the end of Doctor Who.
The 1st year companion left after one season because she didn't want to be associated with it, fearing the backlash to her career.
2 years in and they finally killed a franchise that survived for 60+ years.  Yeah that happened on their watch.  So I don't think you can keep going down this line of

When entire countries of people including England, the home of the BBC and Doctor Who, all gave up on it with article after article going on about how it went to trash and followed the same "Go woke go broke" path to cancelation.  Thousands upon thousands saw it coming and put it in writing in the hopes the creators would back off before committing to a path of action.  They did not.  The show died.  Cause and effect, go figure.

Personally - I'm sick to fkn death of all these people falling back on

-
Drop the pretense already.  The entire world knows what the modern take on 'woke' is.  We all see it show after show, article after article.  We all know what it is.  Trying to fall back on its meaning from 100-200 years ago is like trying to say that "gay" still means "happy" like it did 200 years ago.  How many songs back then had lyrics like "We'll have a gay ole time" meaning happy, not LGBTQAII+MM2. But you don't see anyone insisting we use that definition of the word today.  We all know what 'woke' means in 2026 and so do you so just stop it already.

@Phanlix - Quit speaking for other people and deciding what they mean and their motivations.  I hate that straw man b.s. and I particularly hate when people lie about someone else, make up a motivation for someone else that feeds their argument, then points to the lie as proof of how bad that person is.  Its a weak, desperate form of cancel culture used by people too stupid to have a conversation or debate on actual facts and quotes. 

Pirate and I don't always see eye to eye but we always debate with facts and respect for each other's point of view.

Really?  I did?  That's news to me.  Where?  Because I've never seen Lanterns and I'm pretty sure I've never commented on it since its a show I know nothing about.  I do a lot of posting though.  Maybe something caught my eye with respect to American media and I commented on that specifically without even realizing what thread it was in.  I'll admit its possible even if I don't remember it.  So show me.  Site the source.  Back up the claim.

For those that don't want to see the response to his genocide remarks because this is a TV site not a war site, I've stuck it in a spoiler block - you don't need to open it if you don't care.  But since he brought it up I'm addressing it.

Next section people may not care to read.  I'll tell you who I am and what I believe so you don't have to make it up, wonder or lie.  You don't need to speak for me: I am an adult who can speak for himself, defend my own beleifs and position in my own words without fear of you not agreeing with me or even liking me for it.  I will stand by a very basic concept:
I may not agree with what you say - but I will defend with my life your right to say it.
You can have totally opposite views from me but I will not try to cancel you for it.  You have the right to think as you like and I don't have to share your views.  I might try to engage you on conversation over them.  Might even try to sway your views.  But I won't be one of those people that try to end you over them.

There.  That should be enough of a dump about me and my thinking that you can stop speaking for me, lieing about me, and telling me what I meant or what I said.  So you can just STFU now about what Saint meant.  If you want to know what I think THEN ASK ME and I'll tell you plainly, frankly and without hesitation.

As far as your two random whattaboutisms go, I frankly don't care to engage with that sort of discussion at all. Worth mentioning though Sam L Jackson killed it as Nick Fury so much so that when they rebooted the universe in the comics (again) they modeled the new Nick Fury after him. So canonically there is a black Nick Fury now.

I'm not about to dig through each and every post on a site where you can't view a user's post history easily, but, I'm betting at this point you're hip to it and will notice the pattern of behavior too, it's hard to miss. I stand by my statement, a LOT of times when 'woke' is used in a negative context in these forums it's done to mask the fact that they dislike a black character or LGBT person but want to obscure that fact. I definitely intend to ask what they mean from here on out.

eliot page is not a young boy. hes a man. playing a warrior over the age of 20
not some bed buddy of the greeks.
( which they had lots of and simon likely was)

until you post some facts and a link everything you say is a whataboutism..
and if its good enough for you to cry about its good enough for everyone.

people are not required to like anybody else.  THAT IS NOT HATE
and hating a tv show or episode is not racism.

canonically is still raciest to change a characters race, no matter when it was done.
( and yes Jackson did a  fantastic job)
but if they hired him because he was black its still racist and woke.
its not racist to say that....

Just FYI for those who choose to buff: buffing takes off the top layer or so of the nail and the result is thin nails that break easily. Pass it on.

post a quote of what he said..
i am not going to guess from your description

i am not going to search for things you say "happened"

quote the shit or move on with your life...
i dont see anyone else complaining,  and i dont agree with what he says many times.
but just calling stuff woke is not racist or bigoted in it self. ( he could still be wrong, but that is a different thing)
woke exists just as much as racist exists

as i recall he bitched about eliot page because he was cast as a big matcho greek hero, which is a joke of casting.
much like if you cast the artist formally known as prince as Atlas... you would be laughed at. ( long before anything was on film)

let me ask you this
is it more racist they did not make the scarlet witch jewish
or more woke they made fury black??

because neither were cast/written "correctly"

guess what neither matters but they were both wrong to some dipshit..
and non of it mattered to anyone but screwed up fan freaks and religious nuts

Elliot Page's character wasn't supposed to be some big buff Greek hero. In the story Sinon was more of a tragic figure, a poor boy barely old enough to even enlist who agreed to fight in the place of a rich person, except the rich person never paid his family and ultimately cheated him. He looked up to Odysseus who sacrificed him and never told him the true plan of the horse making him more of a tragic sort of son figure as he was always mentioned as a younger man. But hey you recall the same conversation I do. He was as wrong when he posted that as he is now, and again, he uses words like woke in that specific thread to mask what he's really talking about.

As far as your two random whattaboutisms go, I frankly don't care to engage with that sort of discussion at all. Worth mentioning though Sam L Jackson killed it as Nick Fury so much so that when they rebooted the universe in the comics (again) they modeled the new Nick Fury after him. So canonically there is a black Nick Fury now.

I'm not about to dig through each and every post on a site where you can't view a user's post history easily, but, I'm betting at this point you're hip to it and will notice the pattern of behavior too, it's hard to miss. I stand by my statement, a LOT of times when 'woke' is used in a negative context in these forums it's done to mask the fact that they dislike a black character or LGBT person but want to obscure that fact. I definitely intend to ask what they mean from here on out.

i am not going to search for things you say "happened"

quote the shit or move on with your life...
i dont see anyone else complaining,  and i dont agree with what he says many times.
but just calling stuff woke is not racist or bigoted in it self. ( he could still be wrong, but that is a different thing)
woke exists just as much as racist exists

as i recall he bitched about eliot page because he was cast as a big matcho greek hero, which is a joke of casting.
much like if you cast the artist formally known as prince as Atlas... you would be laughed at. ( long before anything was on film)

let me ask you this
is it more racist they did not make the scarlet witch jewish
or more woke they made fury black??

because neither were cast/written "correctly"

guess what neither matters but they were both wrong to some dipshit..
and non of it mattered to anyone but screwed up fan freaks and religious nuts

i dont see you quoting any racist or anti lgbt stuff he said.

not even him saying any particular thing was woke, just the entire episode.

Okay, I'll ask you this then. Why did he mention that specific episode then? Because it was the first episode when there was a black doctor. Why do you think he said 'that was when the show went woke', if not because it had a black doctor.

In the Lanterns thread he was more specific, he straight up said he doesn't like it when they show what black Americans went through in media.

In another thread he bitched about Elliot Paige and him being trans, in the Harry Potter TV thread he was all over the black Snape. Do you want me to keep going? I could certainly waste my time surfing all the threads here and pull more examples. The guy's a racist. No he doesn't usually come out and say it, he hides it behind complaining about wokeness, and frankly I'm pretty sick of hearing it and playing the damn guessing game on what he's complaining about when he calls it woke this time.